Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'm pretty sure he's saying that Kirby has few new songs - post-Sakurai; pre-Sakurai; remixed; or original - in Smash Ultimate, not that the new Kirby games are recycling songs.

I see - though I already voiced my disappointment and perplexion on Modern Kirby's music getting ignored or just not interesting anyone of many composers collabing in Smash Ultimate's soundtrack. Wish that'd change in Smash 6...

But I'm still baffled by the claim of Modern Kirby-games reusing locations from series' past as that's not been much true. Were you supposed to write "Classic Kirby" instead Champion of Hyrule ? Because that'd prolly have made more sense regarding Smash reusing locations from Kirby's past often like that.

 

[TheZizz]

Is Kirby ever going to grow up and fulfill his warrior destiny? Or is it like a Bobby Hill situation. I wonder what a coherent, focused "adult Kirby" would even look like.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

TBH I think WarioWare's got it worst from the music perspective. Almost every one of those games has a breakout vocal song but Smash seems pretty content at the same few songs. Maybe there's royalty issues with the vocals? A percieved need to include all language versions like the Brawl songs that could take up space? I dunno. Either way, Body Rock and Tomorrow Hill should've been there from Wii U, and I have a lot of doubts about Penny's Song ever appearing.

Is Kirby ever going to grow up and fulfill his warrior destiny? Or is it like a Bobby Hill situation. I wonder what a coherent, focused "adult Kirby" would even look like.

does this count?

Uhh... now I think about it, this might be the best candiate for a multimedia rep in Smash lmao, at least from a strictly moveset perspective. Still on the Dashing Super Guy train though.

 

[TheZizz]

TBH I think WarioWare's got it worst from the music perspective. Almost every one of those games has a breakout vocal song but Smash seems pretty content at the same few songs. Maybe there's royalty issues with the vocals? A percieved need to include all language versions like the Brawl songs that could take up space? I dunno. Either way, Body Rock and Tomorrow Hill should've been there from Wii U, and I have a lot of doubts about Penny's Song ever appearing.


does this count?

Uhh... now I think about it, this might be the best candiate for a multimedia rep in Smash lmao, at least from a strictly moveset perspective. Still on the Dashing Super Guy train though.

I don't like the "rewards" of the warioware stage. I always thought surviving the microgames unscathed was enough reward in itself.

And I'd say what in the shinto is that ugly abomination, but letting on that I don't know might violate the smash board TOS. He looks like he means business but I was thinking more along the lines of metaknights disproportionate cuteness-to-menacing ratio

 

[UserKev]

A part of me would love DK's Bananza design in Smash. It's quirky, different and so full of life.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A part of me would love DK's Bananza design in Smash. It's quirky, different and so full of life.

It's a great design. I wonder if Diddy and K. Rool will have similar updates.

 

[TheZizz]

If you see vitriol everywhere, the common denominator may be you.

If they are still talking down mang0 of all people, that says everything about how well the community recognizes a genuine article

 

[SharkLord]

The lack of more “modern” Kirby content in Smash really doesn’t seem like it comes from any bias on Sakurai’s part. There’s a few factors like the modern Kirby games using lots of locations from past games, and Kirby not getting much music in general that seems more likely to me.

also there’s actually a pretty good amount of songs from newer Kirby games and songs from games like Kirby 64 that Sakurai had no direct involvement in.

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

I’m sorry but this logic just doesn’t make sense to me. The whole idea of there being no series redefining games that demanded a stage is an interesting idea but I don’t think holds up to analysis considering some of the games that did get stages. I mean Kirby’s Fun Pack was hardly that and it got two stages. And then there’s NSMB2 and NSMBU both getting stages

Now the reasoning for BWD not being in 4 is good but the stage reasoning again doesn’t really make sense. I mean Woolly World suddenly existing shouldn’t have automatically cancelled out the Epic Yarn stage. If the idea was the most recent game to use the style took priority then why did two of the oldest Kirby games get the stages?

sakurai may not be averse to the new games but he clearly plays favourites

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve already pivoted towards no longer wanting an Ultimate port on Switch 2, and my feelings for a hypothetical Switch 2 edition aren’t any different.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

Both DLC cycles have leaned more towards third party content and "rising star" series Nintendo has an investment in building up (rather than maintaning a status quo of popularity for), with the only notable exceptions being either targetted specifically at Smash fandom nostalgia (veterans, returning stages, the weird outlier that is Banjo) or Mii costumes, which basically every Kirby character sans Adeleine is a horrible fit for given how much the series utliises unconventional body shapes and Sanrioan proportions. Maybe not bad timing, as much as a potentially disagreeable direction as a whole. I think Smash just has too many series to adequately pay attention to with new content, and that applies even if there was a NASB2-style roster reboot - though I'm not sure if that's an excuse for not trying either. I would absolutely love to see a world where every 1P series has near-equal representaiton.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This could always come down to a little of column A, a little of column B; that Kirby has generally had bad timing in relation to Smash on top of Sakurai and company possibly not having much inclination to go the extra mile in compensating for that.

 

[SharkLord]

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

To be fair, the DLC was strongly oriented towards new series, and most of those new series were big name third-parties. The only ones that fell outside of that were specifically from early Switch releases, one being a new IP () and two others being rotating-cast RPGs ( ), longtime request Banjo and Kazooie, and Sephiroth, who hailed from a series with infamously dismal representation (Two songs, two Spirits, and Cloud wasn't even allowed to get an English VA). While I do agree that Kirby's representation could be improved, it wasn't quite as abysmal as Final Fantasy's representation, and at the time SSBU was running, the series was a solid B-lister at most; Star Allies sold well but didn't make the same impact as other Switch games at the time, and Forgotten Land wouldn't release for another couple of years. The Fighter's Passes just didn't have the same priorities as the base game, and Kirby wasn't in those boundaries.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

The lack of rhythm heaven music is insanity

 

[TheZizz]

That new dedede final smash gives me some BDSM vibes with how bizarre & out of left field it is. This is smash all-stars not Kirby subreddit flavor of the month. Though I wouldn't mind the next smash going full MUGEN-smorgasbord with everything and the kitchen sink, if other long-standing IPs get the "Metroid" treatment. It's just that I see more f-zero GX streams (just the one game) than the whole of the Kirby series, at a glance.

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the next smash is still in the conceptual phase, since ultimate probably still has some wind in its sails sales-wise. So sakurai might yet take the helm again, in which case Kirby is sure to be a star player like usual, and literally that rainbow sword is just super satisfying. BYAHH!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That new dedede final smash gives me some BDSM vibes with how bizarre & out of left field it is.

Masked Dedede is directly from the Kirby games. It was also one of the most requested Final Smash changes.

I'm not even going to comment on the BDSM thing.

 

[TheZizz]

Masked Dedede is directly from the Kirby games. It was also one of the most requested Final Smash changes.

I'm not even going to comment on the BDSM thing.

Well it's established that denouncing opinions are within the bounds of the thread. And I'd wager that most smash players are unfamiliar with, whatever that outlandish display is, if such a thing could be accurately polled.

Anyway I'm not a fan of the roll degradation mechanic. If roll spam was such an issue at low level play then just nerf it outright. Inputs are best left consistent. But specials are an acceptable exception

 

[MasterCheef]

Rauru is very disappointingly under represented as a best contender for a new LOZ rep.
Especially w/ ( Age of Imprisonment ) coming out soon

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Well it's established that denouncing opinions are within the bounds of the thread. And I'd wager that most smash players are unfamiliar with, whatever that outlandish display is, if such a thing could be accurately polled.

Masked Dedede is actually fairly well known. The metal mask and it's associated mechanical hammer were introduced way back in Super Star Ultra in 2008, and have reappeared several times in more Kirby games since, both in King Dedede boss fights and in cameos. Dedede even gets a remix of his boss theme for the mask and upgraded hammer, and uploads of the track and remixes of it, official or fanmade, on Youtube tend to amass millions of views. One upload of Kirby Triple Deluxe's version of the theme currently has upwards of 8 million views.

I don't know for certain about most Smash players, but if you're familiar with modern and even a few slightly older Kirby games (and I'd argue there's a pretty big overlap of Kirby fans and Smash fans), chances are extremely high that you know about Masked Dedede.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Every single series represented as playable in Smash already has potential for at least 3 more newcomers. The only one you really have to do any stretching for is ROB, and even then, there are options (Flipper strikes me as a very interesting pick, and Smick has its You Cannot Beat Us street cred). If Duck Hunt solely represented Duck Hunt, I would argue that to be the exception, with the only viable option remaining being a solo duck, but Smash considers Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley as Duck Hunt games, and Gumshoe is likely one too by proxy.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Every single series represented as playable in Smash already has potential for at least 3 more newcomers. The only one you really have to do any stretching for is ROB, and even then, there are options (Flipper strikes me as a very interesting pick, and Smick has its You Cannot Beat Us street cred). If Duck Hunt solely represented Duck Hunt, I would argue that to be the exception, with the only viable option remaining being a solo duck, but Smash considers Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley as Duck Hunt games, and Gumshoe is likely one too by proxy.

If I had to guess for Smash 64 series that are unlikely to get more reps:

Yoshi: Shy Guy and Kamek. Both could also be considered Mario but that’s also the case with Yoshi himself like how Nintendo Today! doesn’t the list the series separately unlike DK and WarioWare. Another option is Poochy for a character that fully debuted in a Yoshi game.

F-Zero: Samurai Goroh and Blood Falcon. The former can have a unique moveset and the latter could be an echo. Also Black Shadow but people wanting him seems like an excuse to just add Ganondorf’s old moveset if he gets redesigned.

EarthBound: Porky, Masked Man and Ninten could be extra characters.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If I had to guess for Smash 64 series that are unlikely to get more reps:

Yoshi: Shy Guy and Kamek. Both could also be considered Mario but that’s also the case with Yoshi himself like how Nintendo Today! doesn’t the list the series separately unlike DK and WarioWare. Another option is Poochy for a character that fully debuted in a Yoshi game.

F-Zero: Samurai Goroh and Blood Falcon. The former can have a unique moveset and the latter could be an echo. Also Black Shadow but people wanting him seems like an excuse to just add Ganondorf’s old moveset if he gets redesigned.

EarthBound: Porky, Masked Man and Ninten could be extra characters.

The Stork has always been my Yoshi option, Burt the Bashful makes sense too I feel. Exploding Fat Guy is a weird middle ground where the moveset could be really cool but that ad is probably best left in the past, even as someone who otherwise wants ads repped in Smash.

Can't speak too hard on F-Zero, but that series has a pretty large selection of unique playable characters, where Black Shadow and Goroh both lean a little more on the generic side.

Also, yeah, uhh... I've said this a lot of times, but if you've actually played Mother 3, or at least know how the plotline plays out, you do not want Masked Man in Smash. That would just have uncomfy vibes written all over it - even from a prediction standpoint, I can't imagine Itoi letting it happen even if Sakurai wanted it. Porky I think is... fine enough, but I do have a bit of concern over them potentially implementing spanking into a moveset, I don't think I've ever seen a fan moveset without that somewhere; and while lacking any taste issues, I find that Ninten is just a completionist pick, Lloyd; Teddy; Ana or even EVE feel way more interesting to me - without even getting into bosses which I prefer overall to the final villains for EB.

 

[NotWilliam]

Marth Gameplay in melee is like doing an keepy-uppie

as a marth player, I can confirm