Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'm pretty sure he's saying that Kirby has few new songs - post-Sakurai; pre-Sakurai; remixed; or original - in Smash Ultimate, not that the new Kirby games are recycling songs.

I see - though I already voiced my disappointment and perplexion on Modern Kirby's music getting ignored or just not interesting anyone of many composers collabing in Smash Ultimate's soundtrack. Wish that'd change in Smash 6...

But I'm still baffled by the claim of Modern Kirby-games reusing locations from series' past as that's not been much true. Were you supposed to write "Classic Kirby" instead Champion of Hyrule ? Because that'd prolly have made more sense regarding Smash reusing locations from Kirby's past often like that.

 

[TheZizz]

Is Kirby ever going to grow up and fulfill his warrior destiny? Or is it like a Bobby Hill situation. I wonder what a coherent, focused "adult Kirby" would even look like.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

TBH I think WarioWare's got it worst from the music perspective. Almost every one of those games has a breakout vocal song but Smash seems pretty content at the same few songs. Maybe there's royalty issues with the vocals? A percieved need to include all language versions like the Brawl songs that could take up space? I dunno. Either way, Body Rock and Tomorrow Hill should've been there from Wii U, and I have a lot of doubts about Penny's Song ever appearing.

Is Kirby ever going to grow up and fulfill his warrior destiny? Or is it like a Bobby Hill situation. I wonder what a coherent, focused "adult Kirby" would even look like.

does this count?

Uhh... now I think about it, this might be the best candiate for a multimedia rep in Smash lmao, at least from a strictly moveset perspective. Still on the Dashing Super Guy train though.

 

[TheZizz]

TBH I think WarioWare's got it worst from the music perspective. Almost every one of those games has a breakout vocal song but Smash seems pretty content at the same few songs. Maybe there's royalty issues with the vocals? A percieved need to include all language versions like the Brawl songs that could take up space? I dunno. Either way, Body Rock and Tomorrow Hill should've been there from Wii U, and I have a lot of doubts about Penny's Song ever appearing.


does this count?

Uhh... now I think about it, this might be the best candiate for a multimedia rep in Smash lmao, at least from a strictly moveset perspective. Still on the Dashing Super Guy train though.

I don't like the "rewards" of the warioware stage. I always thought surviving the microgames unscathed was enough reward in itself.

And I'd say what in the shinto is that ugly abomination, but letting on that I don't know might violate the smash board TOS. He looks like he means business but I was thinking more along the lines of metaknights disproportionate cuteness-to-menacing ratio

 

[UserKev]

A part of me would love DK's Bananza design in Smash. It's quirky, different and so full of life.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A part of me would love DK's Bananza design in Smash. It's quirky, different and so full of life.

It's a great design. I wonder if Diddy and K. Rool will have similar updates.

 

[TheZizz]

If you see vitriol everywhere, the common denominator may be you.

If they are still talking down mang0 of all people, that says everything about how well the community recognizes a genuine article

 

[SharkLord]

The lack of more “modern” Kirby content in Smash really doesn’t seem like it comes from any bias on Sakurai’s part. There’s a few factors like the modern Kirby games using lots of locations from past games, and Kirby not getting much music in general that seems more likely to me.

also there’s actually a pretty good amount of songs from newer Kirby games and songs from games like Kirby 64 that Sakurai had no direct involvement in.

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

I’m sorry but this logic just doesn’t make sense to me. The whole idea of there being no series redefining games that demanded a stage is an interesting idea but I don’t think holds up to analysis considering some of the games that did get stages. I mean Kirby’s Fun Pack was hardly that and it got two stages. And then there’s NSMB2 and NSMBU both getting stages

Now the reasoning for BWD not being in 4 is good but the stage reasoning again doesn’t really make sense. I mean Woolly World suddenly existing shouldn’t have automatically cancelled out the Epic Yarn stage. If the idea was the most recent game to use the style took priority then why did two of the oldest Kirby games get the stages?

sakurai may not be averse to the new games but he clearly plays favourites

 

[Perkilator]

I’ve already pivoted towards no longer wanting an Ultimate port on Switch 2, and my feelings for a hypothetical Switch 2 edition aren’t any different.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I think it's less that there's not enough Modern Kirby stages to pull from, and moreso about the circumstances at the time. Brawl gave us both Dedede and Meta Knight, and at the time Kirby hadn't had any series-redefining installments that absolutely needed representing, so it was a pretty reasonable deal.

By Smash 4, we got RtDL, which defined the series for the next decade. Even so, the series was still pretty small and didn't demand a new fighter or stage immediately - Even if BWD was a popular request, he'd only been a major character for a couple games, and had only been playable once. That said, we still got Ultra Sword for Kirby's Final Smash, so it's not like Sakurai ignored it entirely. If he was really that averse to modern Kirby, he could've kept Cook, or done Mike or Crash. Sakurai's also stated that he wanted an Epic Yarn stage, but Yoshi's Wooly World was announced and that took over the yarn aesthetic, so the KEY stage was reworked into the Great cave Offensive. So, we know some of the newer games are at least on his radar.

For Ultimate, we all know new content was hella crunched, so very few series were lucky enough to have a fighter. At this point in time, we also got a few new games like Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot, and Rainbow Curse. While decently acclaimed, they weren't megaton hits yet, so they didn't take priority for a stage. Also, Bandana Dee's only new playable appearance was in a spinoff, so he hadn't hit his current level of importance. We at least got Masked Dedede as a final smash, so that's one more piece of post-Sakurai content, even if it's just a little thing.

All things considered, it seems like Sakurai's more aware of newer Kirby games than people assume he is, and the lack of content is likely just a matter of circumstance.

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

Both DLC cycles have leaned more towards third party content and "rising star" series Nintendo has an investment in building up (rather than maintaning a status quo of popularity for), with the only notable exceptions being either targetted specifically at Smash fandom nostalgia (veterans, returning stages, the weird outlier that is Banjo) or Mii costumes, which basically every Kirby character sans Adeleine is a horrible fit for given how much the series utliises unconventional body shapes and Sanrioan proportions. Maybe not bad timing, as much as a potentially disagreeable direction as a whole. I think Smash just has too many series to adequately pay attention to with new content, and that applies even if there was a NASB2-style roster reboot - though I'm not sure if that's an excuse for not trying either. I would absolutely love to see a world where every 1P series has near-equal representaiton.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This could always come down to a little of column A, a little of column B; that Kirby has generally had bad timing in relation to Smash on top of Sakurai and company possibly not having much inclination to go the extra mile in compensating for that.

 

[SharkLord]

See, I would be much more trusting of bad timing if it only happened twice. But I consider Smash's DLC cycles separate from the base games, especially since Ultimate too WAY longer to wrap its paid content up. And in the entire run of the two DLC cycles, the most we ever got for new Kirby content was... the Smash 64 stage. In Smash 4 and not Ultimate, by the way! They didn't even bother adding Kirby Mii costumes, which is awkward since I thought the Marx hat in Ultimate was previously paid DLC; apparently not!

That's four separate cycles of Smash, and the closest we ever got to meaningful content outside of the typical bubble came from a completely untouched spirit list full of holes (i.e. no 64 spirits). I don't know how much the Epic Yarn stage would've helped it if got in, but the current timeline where Good-Feel's replacement stage got canned but not GCO... there's no context where I can trust that as just circumstances.

To be fair, the DLC was strongly oriented towards new series, and most of those new series were big name third-parties. The only ones that fell outside of that were specifically from early Switch releases, one being a new IP () and two others being rotating-cast RPGs ( ), longtime request Banjo and Kazooie, and Sephiroth, who hailed from a series with infamously dismal representation (Two songs, two Spirits, and Cloud wasn't even allowed to get an English VA). While I do agree that Kirby's representation could be improved, it wasn't quite as abysmal as Final Fantasy's representation, and at the time SSBU was running, the series was a solid B-lister at most; Star Allies sold well but didn't make the same impact as other Switch games at the time, and Forgotten Land wouldn't release for another couple of years. The Fighter's Passes just didn't have the same priorities as the base game, and Kirby wasn't in those boundaries.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

The lack of rhythm heaven music is insanity

 

[TheZizz]

That new dedede final smash gives me some BDSM vibes with how bizarre & out of left field it is. This is smash all-stars not Kirby subreddit flavor of the month. Though I wouldn't mind the next smash going full MUGEN-smorgasbord with everything and the kitchen sink, if other long-standing IPs get the "Metroid" treatment. It's just that I see more f-zero GX streams (just the one game) than the whole of the Kirby series, at a glance.

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the next smash is still in the conceptual phase, since ultimate probably still has some wind in its sails sales-wise. So sakurai might yet take the helm again, in which case Kirby is sure to be a star player like usual, and literally that rainbow sword is just super satisfying. BYAHH!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That new dedede final smash gives me some BDSM vibes with how bizarre & out of left field it is.

Masked Dedede is directly from the Kirby games. It was also one of the most requested Final Smash changes.

I'm not even going to comment on the BDSM thing.

 

[TheZizz]

Masked Dedede is directly from the Kirby games. It was also one of the most requested Final Smash changes.

I'm not even going to comment on the BDSM thing.

Well it's established that denouncing opinions are within the bounds of the thread. And I'd wager that most smash players are unfamiliar with, whatever that outlandish display is, if such a thing could be accurately polled.

Anyway I'm not a fan of the roll degradation mechanic. If roll spam was such an issue at low level play then just nerf it outright. Inputs are best left consistent. But specials are an acceptable exception

 

[MasterCheef]

Rauru is very disappointingly under represented as a best contender for a new LOZ rep.
Especially w/ ( Age of Imprisonment ) coming out soon

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Well it's established that denouncing opinions are within the bounds of the thread. And I'd wager that most smash players are unfamiliar with, whatever that outlandish display is, if such a thing could be accurately polled.

Masked Dedede is actually fairly well known. The metal mask and it's associated mechanical hammer were introduced way back in Super Star Ultra in 2008, and have reappeared several times in more Kirby games since, both in King Dedede boss fights and in cameos. Dedede even gets a remix of his boss theme for the mask and upgraded hammer, and uploads of the track and remixes of it, official or fanmade, on Youtube tend to amass millions of views. One upload of Kirby Triple Deluxe's version of the theme currently has upwards of 8 million views.

I don't know for certain about most Smash players, but if you're familiar with modern and even a few slightly older Kirby games (and I'd argue there's a pretty big overlap of Kirby fans and Smash fans), chances are extremely high that you know about Masked Dedede.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Every single series represented as playable in Smash already has potential for at least 3 more newcomers. The only one you really have to do any stretching for is ROB, and even then, there are options (Flipper strikes me as a very interesting pick, and Smick has its You Cannot Beat Us street cred). If Duck Hunt solely represented Duck Hunt, I would argue that to be the exception, with the only viable option remaining being a solo duck, but Smash considers Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley as Duck Hunt games, and Gumshoe is likely one too by proxy.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Every single series represented as playable in Smash already has potential for at least 3 more newcomers. The only one you really have to do any stretching for is ROB, and even then, there are options (Flipper strikes me as a very interesting pick, and Smick has its You Cannot Beat Us street cred). If Duck Hunt solely represented Duck Hunt, I would argue that to be the exception, with the only viable option remaining being a solo duck, but Smash considers Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley as Duck Hunt games, and Gumshoe is likely one too by proxy.

If I had to guess for Smash 64 series that are unlikely to get more reps:

Yoshi: Shy Guy and Kamek. Both could also be considered Mario but that’s also the case with Yoshi himself like how Nintendo Today! doesn’t the list the series separately unlike DK and WarioWare. Another option is Poochy for a character that fully debuted in a Yoshi game.

F-Zero: Samurai Goroh and Blood Falcon. The former can have a unique moveset and the latter could be an echo. Also Black Shadow but people wanting him seems like an excuse to just add Ganondorf’s old moveset if he gets redesigned.

EarthBound: Porky, Masked Man and Ninten could be extra characters.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If I had to guess for Smash 64 series that are unlikely to get more reps:

Yoshi: Shy Guy and Kamek. Both could also be considered Mario but that’s also the case with Yoshi himself like how Nintendo Today! doesn’t the list the series separately unlike DK and WarioWare. Another option is Poochy for a character that fully debuted in a Yoshi game.

F-Zero: Samurai Goroh and Blood Falcon. The former can have a unique moveset and the latter could be an echo. Also Black Shadow but people wanting him seems like an excuse to just add Ganondorf’s old moveset if he gets redesigned.

EarthBound: Porky, Masked Man and Ninten could be extra characters.

The Stork has always been my Yoshi option, Burt the Bashful makes sense too I feel. Exploding Fat Guy is a weird middle ground where the moveset could be really cool but that ad is probably best left in the past, even as someone who otherwise wants ads repped in Smash.

Can't speak too hard on F-Zero, but that series has a pretty large selection of unique playable characters, where Black Shadow and Goroh both lean a little more on the generic side.

Also, yeah, uhh... I've said this a lot of times, but if you've actually played Mother 3, or at least know how the plotline plays out, you do not want Masked Man in Smash. That would just have uncomfy vibes written all over it - even from a prediction standpoint, I can't imagine Itoi letting it happen even if Sakurai wanted it. Porky I think is... fine enough, but I do have a bit of concern over them potentially implementing spanking into a moveset, I don't think I've ever seen a fan moveset without that somewhere; and while lacking any taste issues, I find that Ninten is just a completionist pick, Lloyd; Teddy; Ana or even EVE feel way more interesting to me - without even getting into bosses which I prefer overall to the final villains for EB.

 

[NotWilliam]

Marth Gameplay in melee is like doing an keepy-uppie

as a marth player, I can confirm

 

[TheZizz]

Wouldn't having Ninten alongside ness be like having Red alongside pokemon trainer? Though I'd be fine with having loads of model swaps across the board. Or even somehow facilitating user-made mods over netplay (except that would call for moderation on the part of Nintendo, and copyrighted IPs is half the fun)

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Wouldn't having Ninten alongside ness be like having Red alongside pokemon trainer?

I think the difference is that Ninten is a separate character from Ness or at least in the final game despite both characters looking similar.

This is unlike Red in FRLG and Pokemon Trainer who share the exact same design and PT’s trophy in Brawl and Smash 4 mentions both RBY and FRLG as appearances so it’s implied that he is supposed to be Red outside of name.

 

[smashkirby]

Every single series represented as playable in Smash already has potential for at least 3 more newcomers. The only one you really have to do any stretching for is ROB, and even then, there are options (Flipper strikes me as a very interesting pick, and Smick has its You Cannot Beat Us street cred). If Duck Hunt solely represented Duck Hunt, I would argue that to be the exception, with the only viable option remaining being a solo duck, but Smash considers Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley as Duck Hunt games, and Gumshoe is likely one too by proxy.

To be fair, Professor Hector IS an option too. Not to mention, Hector's assistant Vector as an Alph-styled alt. skin.

What's more, I feel like Gumshoe would be looked at as a totally separate series to warrant Mr. Stevenson as a playable character. Granted, given that Gumshoe is in a similar situation to that of StarTropics and Geist, I can't be TOO sure about that.

 

[TheZizz]

I think the difference is that Ninten is a separate character from Ness or at least in the final game despite both characters looking similar.

This is unlike Red in FRLG and Pokemon Trainer who share the exact same design and PT’s trophy in Brawl and Smash 4 mentions both RBY and FRLG as appearances so it’s implied that he is supposed to be Red outside of name.

I took Ninten to be like a "prototype" of ness, like they decided after the fact that, yea Ninten is not a great name for the protagonist. Unless both characters are in the same game. Otherwise it's like hey, what about Jumpman lul

 

[Oracle Link]

I see - though I already voiced my disappointment and perplexion on Modern Kirby's music getting ignored or just not interesting anyone of many composers collabing in Smash Ultimate's soundtrack. Wish that'd change in Smash 6...

But I'm still baffled by the claim of Modern Kirby-games reusing locations from series' past as that's not been much true. Were you supposed to write "Classic Kirby" instead Champion of Hyrule ? Because that'd prolly have made more sense regarding Smash reusing locations from Kirby's past often like that.

Funnily enough actual green greens only appears in dreamland, super star (ultra) and spin offs whenever a green level apoears nowadays its called Green G....For example green gears from robobot and green gardens from star allies!

The only two locations that often reapear are dededes castle and the halberd!

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

OK, going back to the "generic animals" discourse... I find it confusing that someone could like Donkey Kong but not the simple idea of "a gorilla". That is literally what Donkey Kong is, how did you become a fan of Donkey Kong if you think gorillas are boring? I can understand to some extent "gorilla go punch" being non-preferable to a moveset with orange grenades; barrels; e.t.c. (albeit in disagreement) and I do agree that DK's personality in Smash is a bit dull compared to canon, but I can't understand on any level how someone who thinks gorillas are just boring in a video game context without some anthropomorphic element looking at a character roster - or better yet, a Blockbuster shelf - and saying "Hmm, I will play as the gorilla". Donkey Kong isn't an exceptionally anthropomorphic character like say, Banjo or Sonic, who is completely detached from his real world equivalent in either appearance or abilities/personality, so I kinda just fail to see how someone who already likes the character wouldn't be able to view "funny gorilla punch" as at least close enough moveset-wise, or would find the idea of "play as a gorilla" non-exceptional gravitating towards DK outside of Smash in the first place.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

OK, going back to the "generic animals" discourse... I find it confusing that someone could like Donkey Kong but not the simple idea of "a gorilla". That is literally what Donkey Kong is, how did you become a fan of Donkey Kong if you think gorillas are boring? I can understand to some extent "gorilla go punch" being non-preferable to a moveset with orange grenades; barrels; e.t.c. (albeit in disagreement) and I do agree that DK's personality in Smash is a bit dull compared to canon, but I can't understand on any level how someone who thinks gorillas are just boring in a video game context without some anthropomorphic element looking at a character roster - or better yet, a Blockbuster shelf - and saying "Hmm, I will play as the gorilla". Donkey Kong isn't an exceptionally anthropomorphic character like say, Banjo or Sonic, who is completely detached from his real world equivalent in either appearance or abilities/personality, so I kinda just fail to see how someone who already likes the character wouldn't be able to view "funny gorilla punch" as at least close enough moveset-wise, or would find the idea of "play as a gorilla" non-exceptional gravitating towards DK outside of Smash in the first place.

The distaste/lack of enthusiasm towards a gorilla emphasized DK is part of a larger tonal disagreement about the franchise within parts of the Donkey Kong fandom itself. To a degree, the issues of the post-Rare buyout era are still lingering a bit with some fans, specifically that DK for a time seemingly was presented more as a dumb(er) ape that just liked punching things. Jungle Beat specifically leans into a characterization somewhat adjacent to this and the overall nature of that game remains controversial in some circles of the DK fandom to this very day.

Smash is a fallout of this in many ways and not just affecting Donkey Kong. Beyond the fighter style still not gelling with people Diddy's monkey flip grab (with attacks) and banana peel still irk a few because they're somewhat invented moves and feel like they lean into him being a chimp. To a few fans it feels like it comes off as a shallow interpretation of the character, with even the series use of bananas still not doing much to (to them) justifying Diddy pulling out a peel out of nowhere. Its why the objections to him or DK pulling a barrel out of nowhere for movesets rarely have much weight in arguments to such fans because randomly producing an object is already happening with one of them; certain fans would just prefer it be closer to what the series actually utilizes.

Essentially many in the DK fandom are wary of fighter presentations that go all in on the monkey/ape aspects because there's a perceived lack of recognition that the characters and games in the series are more than just wacky apes doing animal things (not there's anything wrong with having that kind of character). For a series that has accusations of iffy Smash representation already (see the consistent use of jungle levels for DK stages) highlighting big destructive gorilla as what DK is feels emblematic to some of a surface level portrayal of Donkey Kong in general.

 

[Opossum]

The distaste/lack of enthusiasm towards a gorilla emphasized DK is part of a larger tonal disagreement about the franchise within parts of the Donkey Kong fandom itself. To a degree, the issues of the post-Rare buyout era are still lingering a bit with some fans, specifically that DK for a time seemingly was presented more as a dumb(er) ape that just liked punching things. Jungle Beat specifically leans into a characterization somewhat adjacent to this and the overall nature of that game remains controversial in some circles of the DK fandom to this very day.

I guess the bigger question I have with this is...where does the perception that DK isn't this come from? Between the Mario games, the arcade DK games, and the Country games, he was always just a big, strong gorilla that barged his way through things. If anything, the use of tools like the Coconut Gun in DK64 seem like the actual outliers there. I get people being upset about his voice in Smash (I agree; he should have his current voice), but I genuinely have no idea where the idea that DK was dumbed down comes from. Dumbed down from what??

 

[jamesster445]

I have come to an opinion that if anyone asks what Smash 6 "should do". The correct answer is almost always "Just do what Street Fighter 6 did."

Updating the game play and characters? Do what SF6 did.
Single Player Content? Do what SF6 did.
Online infrastructure? Do what SF6 did.

 

[TheZizz]

Diddys chimpy moveset is fine. (Go for the eyes! Ahh!) Banana peel is pretty generic but more possibilities for setups is always nice. But I always thought he's the last character who should have low aerial mobility, or top speed anyway.

I don't throw this term around lightly but wario waft is cringe ay eff. They should replace it with a massive bomb or something, which he is then able to cargo carry (but I wouldn't permit opponents to be carried the way DK can). If Nintendo insists on the rancor have it be pulled out of his WAH (zoo), why not. And one less move that incentivizes running the clock is never a bad thing

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I don't throw this term around lightly but wario waft is cringe ay eff. They should replace it with a massive bomb or something, which he is then able to cargo carry (but I wouldn't permit opponents to be carried the way DK can). If Nintendo insists on the rancor have it be pulled out of his WAH (zoo), why not. And one less move that incentivizes running the clock is never a bad thing

I'm by no means a big fan of fart jokes, and Wario in general could use more moves from the Wario Land series, but, counterpoint:

Launching opponents into oblivion while flying high into the sky with the Waft is funny.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Monkey Flip is a great attack actually. It sort of represents the throwing mechanic that especially existed since DKC2. Probably was a left over animation from the time Diddy was supposed to be a tag team character with Dixie. I like it. It fits. Especially compared to the Headbut of DK.

Now the Banana Peel is somewhat... different. It does indeed play too much into the funny monkey trope. I just think it's a matter or circumstances here. Diddy was meant to team up with Dixie, and the Banana was a new item in Brawl. I think this was just a substitute idea. And now Diddy's entire kit revolves around it, and it's an amazing attack. I forgive it because of this.

Also the part of circumstances really describes how older characters function in Smash overall. DK was around since the beginning, so he has a more basic move set because of it. Diddy was included in Brawl and while not as basic perse, move sets really started to be more fleshed out since Smash 4. Several characters suffer from this. So it's not a problem only for the Kongs. Kirby, Samus, Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Sonic, just to name a few.

 

[AlRex]

Diddy’s moveset is mostly alright, Donkey could maybe use some barrel implementation (since that’s like the most famous thing about DK besides “gorilla”) while still keeping his grabbing and brawling.

Platformer mascots (or those who’ve been one, see also Pac-Man) and a few other characters gotta settle on a core thing rather than tacking on every item/weapon they got in-game, because unfortunately getting everything there runs the risk of not really having any coherence, plus a lot of those abilities being a lot of things other characters already do and have more of a core around (rolling or certain elemental attacks, for instance). It works situationally in a platformer to go around collecting power-ups that situationally fit well, but mixing it in with a fighter, it’s tricky. I suspect Rayman and Crash would run into similar problems, and hopefully they could turn out more interestingly and well put-together than some may expect.

I’m like half and half on this, because I actually am not too big on current DK’s moveset either, mostly just never gelled with me aside from his cargo throw (which is a very DK thing to me and also has a fun, unique gameplay application), but whatever substitute he gets has to be similar in the core of it. Even an update based on Bananza seems like it would be starting from a similar ethos of expressing the idea of Donkey Kong in gameplay, as does the DKC series in general.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think part of my discomfort towards modern Smash is that I hate being rewarded and complimented for something with practically no labor involved like fandom. Early Smash felt like a creative extension and remix of its source materials, made for the sake of just being a fun take on something existing, while modern Smash feels like it's trying more to validate people who are already fans of the source materials, make them feel like that was worthwhile and leading to something, which reads to me as an intrusive compliment towards something (fandom) that does not necessitate compliments, ESPECIALLY if it's to be percieved as sincere and not just a way of farming brand loyalty. Have you ever had someone stop you on the street and say "your hair looks cool!" for absolutely no practical benefit? it's a ****ing nightmare, I would not wish it on my worst enemy.

 

[UserKev]

I'm one of those people that think Smash shouldn't reward you with a saying. I do miss "Congradulations" but I remember how Smash 4 rewarded you "Nice work" which I find incredibly pretentious to this day. Sometimes more "silence" just works better.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Have you ever had someone stop you on the street and say "your hair looks cool!" for absolutely no practical benefit? it's a ****ing nightmare, I would not wish it on my worst ene

I'd love that honestly.