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Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

Bandit

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I've heard Brinstar is an excellent counter to kirby. Small walls and ceiling no good for little light puff ball. Plus, if we wreck his aerial game, then we can stay in the lower sections of the stage and force an aerial approach. I would take Kirby here anytime, and I have yet to have a problem with the stage being permeable.

I don't know where you got your Brinstar information, but mine was from talking to Hat and Gonzo.
 

Villi

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Jungle Japes is becoming a personal favorite of mine for Zelda. It's a stage I'm very comfortable on and the water is no problemo. From experience, Kirby can be formidable on Japes, but I think the game is about who can keep control of the center platform and Zelda is generally good at stuff like that.

I would be careful about Brinstar, though. Maybe you're just better at that stage than I am, Bandit, but Kirby can kill Zelda almost as early as she can kill him -- I think the closer blast zones could arguably be more beneficial to him than they would be to Zelda. I find the terrain difficult to manage and the acid annoying when I'm Zelda. Stage permeability is a problem that can be fixed with practice; I find it to be a negligible consideration.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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a kirby who undrstands the stage can really synergize with it. Brinstar is one of kirby's best stages. the layout and close blast zones. And the stage is not one of zelda's better stages. it's not awful, but it doesn't really help her any more than it normally helps her foe. in fact, the kirby boards recomend it as a THEIR counterpick against Zelda in the matchup, and I agree with that.

I'm not a big fan of japes against kirby. we get the benifit of being that campier of the two of us, but the massive ceiling hampers our KO ability a lot and the water hurts us a hell of a lot more than it hurts him.
 

GreyFox86

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a kirby who undrstands the stage can really synergize with it. Brinstar is one of kirby's best stages. the layout and close blast zones. And the stage is not one of zelda's better stages. it's not awful, but it doesn't really help her any more than it normally helps her foe. in fact, the kirby boards recomend it as a THEIR counterpick against Zelda in the matchup, and I agree with that.

I'm not a big fan of japes against kirby. we get the benifit of being that campier of the two of us, but the massive ceiling hampers our KO ability a lot and the water hurts us a hell of a lot more than it hurts him.
I second this post. Japes is ok up to a curtain extent. The big ceiling isn't what any Zelda player would want or need for that matter. The walls aren't a huge problem if your on the platforms closest to the walls. The water kinda scares me a bit cause its running super fast, and the clap traps come in at random. I'm not saying don't chose Japes for your counter, I'm only saying that Zelda has to work a little harder cause of the big ceiling.
 

GreyFox86

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Lol and nothing against that. Though against Kirby I personally like BattleField against Kirby. What about Halberd?
 

GreyFox86

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Really? It doesn't seem that way to me cause I like going through the platform when recovering with Zelda. But I'm sure there are reasons for that.
 

JigglyZelda003

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i like halbeard for Zelda sometimes, but i know i get this feeling of "you really shouldn't be here" when i play on it. whats so bad about it cause i don't really know.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Really? It doesn't seem that way to me cause I like going through the platform when recovering with Zelda. But I'm sure there are reasons for that.
that's actually a bad thing for her. landing lag on farore's is wildly punishable.

halberd isn't BAD as long as you are sheik when it's on the permiable platform... but sheik is not good against kirby so... yeah
 

Asdioh

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I've heard Brinstar is an excellent counter to kirby. Small walls and ceiling no good for little light puff ball. Plus, if we wreck his aerial game, then we can stay in the lower sections of the stage and force an aerial approach. I would take Kirby here anytime, and I have yet to have a problem with the stage being permeable.

I don't know where you got your Brinstar information, but mine was from talking to Hat and Gonzo.
I started trying out Brinstar some time ago, and it quickly became my favorite counterpick, as a Kirby main. Here's a post I made about it a while back:
Okay, so I just did some testing on Brinstar, and if this isn't already listed as "one of kirby's best stages", then I think maybe it should be. Here are some reasons it's so good for him:

-Close sides for early KOs from fsmash, dsmash, hammer, aerial hammer, wall of pain, some copied powers.
-Short ceiling for early KOs from upsmash, dsmash, aerial hammer, hammer, upthrow, upair at high %
-Spiking people into the acid
-I figured out what happened on the breakable cylinders that can separate the stage. If you run onto them, and do a grounded hammer, you will actually slide a noticable distance, and your hammer reaches much farther than it normally would. TRY IT!
-Increased hitbox duration for Stone and downward-angled hammer on those breakable cylinders.
-Jab the string pillars to refresh moves.
-Leftward-facing Final Cutter on the right platform (attached) follows the platforms angle downwards and can hit people on the middle part of the stage.
-Stone Shockwave Glitch on the right platform (when string is broken). Beware of falling off when the string reattaches, or when the stage comes back together.
-Turning into a Stone when the acid is high for safety. Your opponent can't follow you there. You will eventually take over 30% damage from the acid in Stone form, and it will knock you up, but you won't take any damage due to the Stone's mechanics. Beware of doing this at high percentages.
-Attacking through the bottom of the stage is great for Kirby. Beware of characters with spikes.
-The small stage discourages camping. Campy characters are screwed even more when the acid rises to full height, and you are both pretty much forced to the top platform.
-Kirby evades the acid easier than most with his multiple jumps.


Things to watch out for:
-Falling through the acid as a Stone to your doom.
-Close sides and top can be advantageous for your opponent, as well as you.
-Some attacks can last incredibly long on the strings that attach the platforms. Take advantage of people that do this by accident, but watch out for people who try to trick you with it. (Snake's Fsmash, like Bunny said)

Yeah as you can see, I like it. It works especially well for me because of the simple fact that I play it more than most of my opponents, so I know what to expect, whereas they sometimes screw up and get killed by the stage, and I don't even have to do any work ^_^

As for the matchup, I think I agree with 60-40 Zelda's favor.

Jungle Japes IS one of Kirby's best stages. You should also know (though I don't really want to tell you) that Kirby can "kirbycide" with Inhale between the left and center platforms, and as soon as you hit the water while you're inhaled, you come out far to his left and get swept into the blastzone, but he has enough time to jump out and survive. Cheap kos ftw!

He can also Dair into the water pretty easily, and perhaps Final Cutter spike.

I wouldn't really recommend this stage as Zelda against Kirby. If he takes your power, he can avoid Din's Fire permanently just by hitting B whenever it gets close. I don't know how often you guys star ko, but Kirby relies on horizontal KOs more, which is good on this stage.

It might just be me that's weird and picks Brinstar, I don't know many others who do it as often as me. Expect to see Rainbow Cruise against most Kirbys, probably.


I don't really have any good Zelda experience, so if you guyz want to play a pretty good Kirby on wifi for practice and testing and stuff, send me a PM :O
 

Bandit

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@Asdioh

It might just be a matter of preference then? Zelda can abuse the ceilings/walls/sticky strings/connecting spheres as well. Hat switched off Kirby for the match because of his dislike for the stage and went to G&W (not good for me). I asked him why later, and he said he has had little success on the stage.

I like the stage for Zelda, though I know I'm in the minority there. Again, it all seems to be more preference there.

I would never take a Kirby to Japes though. I did that once... I've never seen a player get that excited over a stage before... didn't end well for me.
 

fromundaman

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Yeah, Brinistar is a good stage for Kirby. HOWEVER, I would not pick it against Zelda, if only because her Usmash will kill you ridiculously easily there, and considering how that's my Kirby's worst nightmare vs Zelda, Jungle Japes it shall be!

Also, at close range, Bair goes through Din's, which can be bad for Zelda.
Offstage, Zelda seems to get killed by Kirby, and Kirby can edgeguard Zelda fairly effectively due to the startup and ending time on Farore's, as well as the fact that Bair beats out the blast from Farore's.

Onstage, however, Kirby is outranged and outprioritized all over the place. Usmash and Utilt beat our aerial approaches, and just about everything else, especially Fsmash, beats our ground approaches. At a distance, Din's can be a nuisance, though it's not too hard to avoid offline.

Also, Fair, Bair and Dair are hard to sweetspot against Kirby due to his size.

And... I have to go, more later today.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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@Red_Bandit: oh hahaha then you didn't see me at a tournament when a falco counterpicked battlefield AGAINST my zelda :chuckle:
Yeah, Brinistar is a good stage for Kirby. HOWEVER, I would not pick it against Zelda, if only because her Usmash will kill you ridiculously easily there, and considering how that's my Kirby's worst nightmare vs Zelda, Jungle Japes it shall be!
looking at all the shtuff asdioh wrote, it looks like, while japes is worse for zelda in this matchup, brinstar is better for kirby. that is to say, japes focuses more on taking parts of zelda's game away and brinstar focuses more on giving nifty bonuses to kirby. This having been said. I think both are viable counterpicks for kirby against zelda (which is funny to me because both have been suggested by zelda mains as anti kirby counterpicks :laugh: ) IT probably comes down to which stage YOU are more familiar with. which stage WE are more familiar with and which stage effect is more useful to you: the big offensive bonus to kirby that brinstar gives you, or the deffensive bonus against zelda that japes gives you (not that you don't get an offensive boost there too... it's just smaller).

Also, at close range, Bair goes through Din's, which can be bad for Zelda.
Offstage, Zelda seems to get killed by Kirby, and Kirby can edgeguard Zelda fairly effectively due to the startup and ending time on Farore's, as well as the fact that Bair beats out the blast from Farore's.
that doesn't really matter too much. Zelda shouldn't be using din's that close anyway. Kirby also has much worse aerial mobility than zelda. Rarely should he be in a position to gimp her recovery. For all the weaknesses of Farore's wind, it travels distance safer than any other recovery. Unless the zelda is really bad, or is in a really unlucky position, then don't expect to gimp her by interception.

Onstage, however, Kirby is outranged and outprioritized all over the place. Usmash and Utilt beat our aerial approaches, and just about everything else, especially Fsmash, beats our ground approaches. At a distance, Din's can be a nuisance, though it's not too hard to avoid offline.
truth. Zelda's attacks are slower and more punishable for the most part, but they have such great priority and range that I don't see you making it through them very often.. which is what gives you such a ridiculously unfun time with zelda.

Also, Fair, Bair and Dair are hard to sweetspot against Kirby due to his size.
wrong actually. Since kirby is airborne so frequently and has poor aerial acceleration, it's actually pretty dang easy to hit him with aerials from my experience.
 

Bandit

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I suggested Brinstar based on experience and talking to two good Kirby's in my area. They don't like it, and I have had good success on it. And, I just had a 3rd Kirby saying they don't want Zelda on that stage. I'm not saying it was the right counterpick, but I was wrong to say it was a horrible stage for Kirby. I should've said that it was not a good stage for Kirby against Zelda.

I don't think it matters though since the CP stage will just be Luigi's or Battlefield.
 

Asdioh

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I would never take a Kirby to Japes though. I did that once... I've never seen a player get that excited over a stage before... didn't end well for me.
@Red_Bandit: oh hahaha then you didn't see me at a tournament when a falco counterpicked battlefield AGAINST my zelda :chuckle:
My first tournament, the 5 neutrals were BF, FD, SV, Yoshi's, and Delfino. 1-2-1 stage strike system.

My first tourney match ever was against a Ness on Delfino...yeah I was ignorant >_>


Anyway, the thing about Kirby is that while he does have GOOD stages, he honestly doesn't really have any BAD stages. So when it comes to counterpicking against Kirby, pick the stage that YOU are best on. Whether it's because you're really familiar with it as a player, or because your character excels there.


I've heard Battlefield and Lylat Cruise are either decent or good for Kirby, but I personally hate the layout of both stages and tend to lose there, so I'll never pick them on purpose unless it's for friendlies. There's just something about people camping under the platforms that makes it really really hard for me to approach as Kirby.

When I play Toon Link, however, I don't mind those stages that much. I still don't love them though.

Is Distant Planet legal where you guys live? I've been to three tournaments (Anther won all three lol) and it was never legal. I'm glad, it's kind of a dumb stage. I don't really know who would CP it anyway.
 

fromundaman

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Is Luigi's even legal?

wrong actually. Since kirby is airborne so frequently and has poor aerial acceleration, it's actually pretty dang easy to hit him with aerials from my experience.
Oh, my bad then.

What I meant by edgeguarding though is that if Kirby knocks you offstage and follows you there, he can hit you during the startup frames of Farore's (AKA before you teleport). Also, on certain stages (like Halberd or FD for example), your trajectory will be very easy to predict, and unless you have enough control to sweetspot the ledge and avoid landing onstage, we will be waiting.

Also, I *believe* Zelda has trouble getting out of Kirby's combos, especially the throw combos, due to slow startup time on attacks, though I could be wrong.

I would probably say 60-40 or at most 65-35 Zelda because while you dominate us onstage, you have trouble breaking out of 'combos', and offstage you are at a disadvantage.
 

Bandit

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Luigi's is not legal in my area, but it is a lot of other places.

I think DI and floatiness works for Zelda as far as getting out of combos in general. I know my friend had a terrible time trying to do the Gonzo combo on me. I'm not sure about attacking in the middle of the combos, but Zelda does cause problems with completing them.
 

Asdioh

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Luigi's is not legal in my area, but it is a lot of other places.

I think DI and floatiness works for Zelda as far as getting out of combos in general. I know my friend had a terrible time trying to do the Gonzo combo on me. I'm not sure about attacking in the middle of the combos, but Zelda does cause problems with completing them.
Yeah I was going to say, it's hard to combo Zelda because she's freaking floaty. Kind of like Samus, but not as much.

Nobody seems to be as floaty as Samus o_O except maybe Jigglypuff
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Zelda is both easy and difficult to combo. other than nayru's, nair, and dsmash, not much is going to come out fast enough to stop a combo... but unless she's at low damages, she simply gets hit too far to continue the combo.

Oh and lylat is NOT a good zelda stage.. so if it's good for kirby... then OUCH us
 

fromundaman

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Good point NL, but that tends to be somewhat situational.

Honestly, I'm just used to not liking that stage from playing other characters.
 

Asdioh

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Lylat is ***** awesome for kirby. Stone + hills = OWNED!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmL-I4Xwowg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO7Noye9SGs

examples of kirby on lylat
I like the Stone for the hills as well, but it seems that the stage tilts back whenever I try to slide off -_- really pisses me off... the same happens to me on Yoshi's Island, but the platform there seems a little more predictable.



It's true though, Lylat is good for Kirby because so many other characters suck there XD

But that's where I 3 stocked Chu o_O
O_o

don't let the fanboys hear you
 

RoyalBlood

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Battlefield was it? >_>

Someone help me get summaries >_< so this actually looks like most match-up threads ^_^

Updating this ^_^ Please stay alert : O
 

GreyFox86

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Wow moving on to ROB already. By all means go for it. I need to see what I can do against ROB anyways cause double Dsmash is annoying
 

Kataefi

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I honestly think she has an advantage on rob. Of all the characters, I find rob one of the easiest characters to LK and Dair spike on, almost cosistently. Din's is great against him to harass.

He's like a much watered down version of snake and slightly more agile than d3. Lower KO potential, more clunky, and lighter. He has an amazing recovery, but... that's it! He can camp, but his camping game isn't as challenging as say grenades for example:

- both have frame 4 dsmashes. Therefore he cannot consistently rely on his spotdodge > Dsmash because Zelda can do exactly the same. It's almost like a fencing match.
- Zelda's FSmash outranges his Ftilt just slightly (again its the last hit)
- Both have beastly Dtilts with different uses. Rob's is only slightly faster, but Zelda's has lock capabilities.
- If Zelda has that gyro, she can use glide toss approaches. Lasers are quite telegraphed, and gyro,like diddy's bananas, can be caught. Gyro and lasers can also be spotdodged, and Zelda has a wicked spotdodge.
- Rob's body is tall and he's also wide. Nair can catch him easily before he uses his own nair, considering frame differences.

I don't really know where I'm leading... but yeah Rob can do stuff to Zelda, but she can do the same stuff back albeit is much more dominant with LKs and spikes. Recovery wise,it's like peach - he'll float to attack her but she'll bypass. Lasers could be problematic for edgeguarding but love jump eliminates that, plus lasers are very precise.

She has din's pressure for edgeguarding, LKs, spikes, the lot.

Rob isn't even that strong. She won't be horribly gimped by him early on.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I'm tired and busy so I'll post more later. but I don't feel this is zelda's advantage more than 55:45 at most.
 

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The spot dodge ^dsmash can get really annoying. But like Kataefi said Zelda's is just as fast. But if you’re in robs circle, expect a dsmash, especially if you’re behind him: also works as a GTFO move. The nice thing about ROBs recover is he’s very vulnerable while moving so Dins will be useful. Often times ROBs will try to fly over your Dins, because Robs hate to air dodge and use upB again, so try to aim high.

He also has a good but predictable upSmash. You can try to bait him, wait till he upSmashes and LK him, or approach from the side with a Nair.

Sadly with all of Rob’s projectile options Zelda is going to be the one approaching most of the time. So although we can easily land LKs Lspikes etc. I really can’t see this matchup being significantly in her favor, 55/45 maybe even even.
 

Bandit

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55:45 Zelda over ROB

Zelda Dair > ROB aerials
Zelda Usmash > ROB aerials
Zelda Dtilt = ROB Dsmash - It clanks and hits on the same frame
Zelda Dtilt > ROB Ftilt - If ROB doesn't angle it, he swings over her if she's doing her Dtilt
ROB Camping > Zelda Camping
Zelda NL > ROB's Glide Toss - you can see it coming
Dins > ROB UpB - He can't air dodge after he has used UpB, and he has limited fuel. This sets up hits by dins or your aerials.

ROB has problems killing Zelda, but he can out camp her and cause a lot of problems for Zelda to approach equaling out Zelda's killing power. She still has the edge simply because ROB still has problems killing her even when he gets her at kill percentages. Nair and Bair are his best kill moves while USmash is his strongest kill move. He can setup USmash with his glide toss, otherwise it is very easy to see coming.

Nair's hitbox starts behind him, so he will approach in the air facing away from you. Be aware that Bair will kill if you are near the side walls, so he could throw either out when he does this.

I've had good success on Norfair against ROB. He is unable to ledge camp on that stage, and the bigger stage lends itself to Zelda and not ROB. I have had success on FD, but the JCaesar refuses to ledge camp in friendlies. Since ledge-camping is an option there, I wouldn't suggest it.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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another short post from me:

pros:
  • ROB is a big target. one of the easier targets to lighting kick while on the stage because of that.
  • We outrange ROB on the ground, meaning, if spaced correctly, we should win.
  • ROB doesn't have many fast options while airborne whice means, if we pop him up right next to us, he shouldn't be able to stop us from following up with something strong.
  • Dsmash has same startup speed at least in front
  • both of rob's projectiles are EASILY reflected by nayru's most of the time.
  • Zelda can glide toss Gyros which normally ends poorly for ROB.
  • ROB's Up+B is easily punished by Din's.
  • ROB has trouble DIing out of attacks
  • ROB has limited kill options

Cons:
  • even though easily reflected, ROB's projectiles rarely become a threat to him when reflected, making Zelda normally the one needing to approach.
  • freaking difficult to kill, with any attack.
  • All around better Dsmash. Same startup, higher damage, harder to avoid, good coverage on BOTH sides at same speed, longer durration, better sheildpoking AND less punishable due to lower cooldown.
  • better aerial game on the whole. sure zelda has some power hits on him, but zelda can't weave like wario, so he should be able to anticipate when zelda will have to arrive to land an attack, and ROB's aerials >>>> Zelda's aerials in terms of priority.
  • ROB kills Zelda earlier than Zelda can kill ROB.
  • ROB is very hard for Zelda to edgeguard. Zelda is very easy for ROB to edgeguard.
  • ROB isn't gimped by stage selection like Zelda is.


All in all. I think ROB's got more going for him in this matchup. I normally do better agianst him with ness than zelda (solely because of dair), but maybe that's just me. Anyway, I hate the matchup.

personal opinion, as much as you hate to hear it:

55:45 ROB in my humble opinion. I'd be shocked if it was zelda's advantage any more than 55:45. I don't feel ROB has a huge advantage either. it's pretty close to neutral, but I just can't seem to ever feel advanataged in the matchup. I honestly think Zelda has the harder fight on even her best stages.
 

Bandit

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ROBs have it as 55:45 in Zelda's favor last time I checked.

He's a big *** target for LK's. Jump off the ledge and challenge him and you will be rewarded. Dair beats his Uair... which makes no sense to me since his Uair has more range, but I beat it so often with Dair that JCaes no longer chases me when I get knocked in the air and risk getting hit by a Dair Combo.

ROB can't kill Zelda before Zelda kills ROB. Are you on crack? His kill moves are easily DI'd, and they all can be seen coming as they have some start-up to them. The most threatening is Bair, and it is as telegraphed as our LK's. Remember his body is a hitbox for his Bair that is fairly powerful.

ROBs like Japes and Frigate, so the stages aren't that difficult to deal with. If they go Delfino or Halberd, they have the advantage during the travel times. I'll have to get the ROBs in here to talk some.
 

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ROB cant airdodge during his up-b. He has to attack to cancel it. I think rob can fair the dins. Not so sure. Robs dsmash u can smash DI out of. Its like pika's but faster. I usually just wait for it then i fair/bair.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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He's a big *** target for LK's. Jump off the ledge and challenge him and you will be rewarded. Dair beats his Uair... which makes no sense to me since his Uair has more range, but I beat it so often with Dair that JCaes no longer chases me when I get knocked in the air and risk getting hit by a Dair Combo.
I never get it to work because he doesn't Uair me. he nairs me and I can't spike his recovery because his nair has so much priority.

ROB can't kill Zelda before Zelda kills ROB. Are you on crack? His kill moves are easily DI'd, and they all can be seen coming as they have some start-up to them. The most threatening is Bair, and it is as telegraphed as our LK's. Remember his body is a hitbox for his Bair that is fairly powerful.
Zelda is very light. ROB is very heavy. Zelda has more killing power, but the discrepency between their weights is larger than the discrepency in their killing power. and Zelda will be vulnerable often enough that you can ssume ROB will land kill moves before she lives to extreme damages.

ROBs like Japes and Frigate, so the stages aren't that difficult to deal with. If they go Delfino or Halberd, they have the advantage during the travel times. I'll have to get the ROBs in here to talk some.
They also have a sizeable advantage on Lylat IMO.

so that's, what, 5 stages ROB can CP against us, and none we can CP against him?
 
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