Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Fuujin]

Okay so I lost to two Marths last tournament and I know it's a terrible MU but I think there are some things I should be doing differently so I have a few questions.

How are you supposed to DI dancing blade?
And what parts do you DI out of?
I always hear you can DI and punish but I never know what part or which way to DI out of.

When Marth does his little chaingrab to tipper F smash(I think Marth can only do this on the moving platform on SV to Zelda) is there any way to DI away so the tipper doesn't connect or is that guaranteed?

 

[C.J.]

Okay so I lost to two Marths last tournament and I know it's a terrible MU but I think there are some things I should be doing differently so I have a few questions.

How are you supposed to DI dancing blade?
And what parts do you DI out of?
I always hear you can DI and punish but I never know what part or which way to DI out of.

When Marth does his little chaingrab to tipper F smash(I think Marth can only do this on the moving platform on SV to Zelda) is there any way to DI away so the tipper doesn't connect or is that guaranteed?

DIing out of DB is dependent on where you are in relation to Marth when DB starts and the variation of DB that Marth does. Zelda is light enough that if you hold straight up and into Marth you can get out of DB if you're close to Marth when he starts. However, you have to be holding up and into him by probably the second hit to succeed. If you are in tipper range of DB, you need to be holding away from him when the first hit connects, and continue holding away from him (you only have 1 frame of DB per hit where you can SDI it so just holding a direction works the same as attempting normal SDI). However, usually if you miss out holding away on the first hit, you won't be able to get out of it (extraneous things like moving platforms excluded). Now, if you're inside of max range and not close enough to go through Marth, unless the Marth player messes up the DB, you can't get out. You might want to hold down to try and get to the ground and shield if he goes slowly or something, but there's nothing guaranteed.

Fthrow-> fsmash is only guaranteed on SV's platform, you're correct. However, Marth's throws have set KB/trajectory until specific percents so there isn't any way to DI as to avoid the fsmash.

Remember that ftilt trades with fair and for once fsmash/usmash isn't safe on shield (we can DS between hits OoS).

Ummm, Marth's dash to shield takes 17 frames so if you see dashes a lot, punish hard for it.

 

[Fuujin]

Oh so it's not easy easy as I thought, ty.

Her F tilt CAN trade with but when you consider the frame data and range against Marth's disjoint the only way for this to happen is if the Zelda throws it out early the Marth spaces his f tilt poorly.
Her f tilt going through his F air is really unreliable.

Up smash is almost never safe on shield lol, and it's not very good against Marth since he can DI out of it and punish.
It makes the MU incredibly frustrating when a Marth knows this because you get punished for landing a smash attack :/.

I think this could potentially be Marths easiest match up, if not its definitely top 5.

 

[tekkie]

is there a Marth CG guide? like, the 0% fthrow/bthrow to fsmash combos?

 

[Sylarius]

Outdated, if anyone has a better guide post it, but this is all I know of.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234060

Also, when I think people will be shielding, should I use shield breaker to reduce their shield, wait for reaction (spotdodge) or only use it when I think it will hit them or break their shield?

 

[Reizilla]

Jerm's Zelda is an impossible match-up for Marth, I am convinced.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

@Sylarius
Technically, you shouldn't use shield breaker at all. Almost every time you could shield breaker someone, you'd be better off waiting and trying to grab them, or dtilt poking at them, or something similar. But if you really want a shield breaker, start by waiting to see what they do. Sometimes the information gained by watching your opponent is worth the possible position reset. Once you are absolutely sure of what they are going to do, only then should you try to go for the shield breaker. Even if it doesn't break their shield, it is often enough to scare them into doing something stupid just in case you try to shield breaker again. That's how hard reads like landing a shield breaker work. Watch for habits, then punish predictability with something you wouldn't usually try. Then you can use their fear of you hitting them with your unorthodox option to force them to make dumb decisions that you can punish conventionally.

 

[Sylarius]

I've been right every time except one, where I hit the opponent instead of his shield. It's pretty easy to tell when they're going to shield for me, but thanks for the response.

 

[Ken Neth]

So I didn't think I'd ever really get a video of my marth, but I guess my friend just uploaded a match he had saved on his wii. Tell me what you think :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFVh...xt=C3849549UDOEgsToPDskKF0M41UrYd0GPWWYTTatVk

It was only a friendly, and there were obviously times where I was just trying stuff out, but it's still a decent match. So if you could critique a beginning marth the help would be much appreciated.

 

[Attila the Hun]

What are some combos and follow ups Marth can do out of GR on Wario? Like, can he do GR-->Nair-->fsmash combos or anything?

 

[Pierce7d]

versus D3 there are a few important points I want to make

1) Learn to react to ftilt. Suppose you and D3 are in neutral. D3 sucks in neutral because he
has 0 bursting attacks. His fastest burst is literally using his terrible dash into a RAR Bair, with his terrible aerial mobility.

This means that D3 is either going to Bair, Ftilt, or run up and block. But guess what? Ftilt is reactable, especially if you see it coming, which you should. To ftilt, D3 must be on the ground, and not moving dashing. Since his only two other approach options involve dashing, you should be able to reliably know when D3 might possibly ftilt, and block. If you react, you will powershield, and this nets a free Dancing Blade.

2) zone with Nair. nair ***** D3. Despite having such a terrific shield, D3 loses to Nair. Two hits just chunking off such a terrific portion of it is lovely. Landing this pressure several times in a row is likely to result in a stab. Slowfall Nair is near impossible to grab with any sort of spacing whatsoever, and lets you retain a lot of advantage. If you're not approaching with it, hit two trades favorably with Bair. Later percents, this is the move that will either finish D3 or knock him off the stage into finishing percentage

third advice coming soon

 

[Sylarius]

What are some combos and follow ups Marth can do out of GR on Wario? Like, can he do GR-->Nair-->fsmash combos or anything?

Air grab release on wario:
Any aerial
Utilt
(sliding or small walk) usmash
Stutter step unbuffered fsmash tipper, you have to have the timing just right and fsmash in the opposite direction to your stutter step forward (watch Leon vs Glutonny to see an example of this, MU8 GF1)

 

[Attila the Hun]

I meant like a combo, lol. Like, can you string stuff together well out of GR on Wario?

Like against Marth, when you pull off an fthrow to nair to fsmash... can you do something like that on Wario?

 

[Lord Chair]

what makes you think you cant

 

[Attila the Hun]

I haven't tried it, because the only person who plays Wario is hard to get a hold of. XD

 

[Pierce7d]

You do not have enough frames to land any combos outside of Nair to a follow-up hit, which will not work at anything from mid-percent to higher, and won't work at all with good DI from Wario. However, some attacks are better for follow-ups than others. For raw damage, use USmash. Use Tipper Fsmash to kill, or Utilt if you haven't mastered that.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Ahkay, it was more out of curiosity and the fact that I like things that look cool.

Any tips for the tipper fsmash, pardon the pun? It seems I can only get it "on a good day" which isn't always the case.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey, I know this MU is in our favor, but I can't figure out a sure-fire way to take on Olimar... What should I do? (T_T)

 

[Lord Chair]

this game has no sure fire win to take on anything with anyone

except for nado against DK

 

[Pierce7d]

versus D3 there are a few important points I want to make

1) Learn to react to ftilt. Suppose you and D3 are in neutral. D3 sucks in neutral because he
has 0 bursting attacks. His fastest burst is literally using his terrible dash into a RAR Bair, with his terrible aerial mobility.

This means that D3 is either going to Bair, Ftilt, or run up and block. But guess what? Ftilt is reactable, especially if you see it coming, which you should. To ftilt, D3 must be on the ground, and not moving dashing. Since his only two other approach options involve dashing, you should be able to reliably know when D3 might possibly ftilt, and block. If you react, you will powershield, and this nets a free Dancing Blade.

2) zone with Nair. nair ***** D3. Despite having such a terrific shield, D3 loses to Nair. Two hits just chunking off such a terrific portion of it is lovely. Landing this pressure several times in a row is likely to result in a stab. Slowfall Nair is near impossible to grab with any sort of spacing whatsoever, and lets you retain a lot of advantage. If you're not approaching with it, hit two trades favorably with Bair. Later percents, this is the move that will either finish D3 or knock him off the stage into finishing percentages.

third advice coming soon

3) Don't dash at D3 pointlessly. Moving around a lot is important to keep D3 guessing, but his first reaction is most likely going to be Dash in and shield because it's the most boring, and yet neutralizing and effective option which produces the greatest rewards for him. Dashing towards him make it easier for him to hit you with an ftilt, grab you, or stuff your jump with a Bair. Space well, and most of your dash ins should be with the intent of making a hard read.

 

[Kel]

How punishable is Ftilt on shield though? Does Marth have to power shield in order to beat ftilt? I have been playing this match up a bunch lately but I wanted to see what the general algorhythms were that other Marth mains used.

Right now I'm trying to figure out my best approach/ goal from a neutral position and the best way to edge guard D3. I have no problem getting him to up B, it just seems that I cannot really do anything effective to hit him back off repeatedly.

I'm also guessing that you want to ban Delfino vs D3 and to keep to stages like SV or Yoshi for platforms (assuming BF is banned).

So I've reaffirmed what I thought about the MU: Falling nair is our only safe option to get back to the stage. Our approach options are FH fair or nair cross up. Our trigger reactions are to DB ftilt (only when we power shielded), and when D3 Dashes assume a shield will pop up, RAR bair.

Thanks guys. This still seems like it will be an annoying MU, but at least I know my options now.

CJ, I will be attending a decent-sized MW tournament this weekend called 'How the Midwest Was Won,' and I should be able to get some videos for you from it. There will be a stream Saturday so I'm assuming videos will be available as well.

My Marth has been doing decent against the people in my area still. I'm having some difficulty against Judo's Shiek currently, but I've been able to beat the local DKs, Snakes, Olimars, and D3s up to this point in tournament. We'll see how I do at a regional this weekend.

 

[Lord Chair]

you dont have to PS ftilt in order to punish it, especially not with DB

you must realize that at really low percentages, its even unsafe on hit

nair crossup isnt a viable approach in any matchup

rar bair doesnt apply actual pressure, all it does it damage his shield and take away your zoning

algorithm

 

[C.J.]

How punishable is Ftilt on shield though? Does Marth have to power shield in order to beat ftilt? I have been playing this match up a bunch lately but I wanted to see what the general algorhythms were that other Marth mains used.

Right now I'm trying to figure out my best approach/ goal from a neutral position and the best way to edge guard D3. I have no problem getting him to up B, it just seems that I cannot really do anything effective to hit him back off repeatedly.

I'm also guessing that you want to ban Delfino vs D3 and to keep to stages like SV or Yoshi for platforms (assuming BF is banned).

So I've reaffirmed what I thought about the MU: Falling nair is our only safe option to get back to the stage. Our approach options are FH fair or nair cross up. Our trigger reactions are to DB ftilt (only when we power shielded), and when D3 Dashes assume a shield will pop up, RAR bair.

Thanks guys. This still seems like it will be an annoying MU, but at least I know my options now.

CJ, I will be attending a decent-sized MW tournament this weekend called 'How the Midwest Was Won,' and I should be able to get some videos for you from it. There will be a stream Saturday so I'm assuming videos will be available as well.

My Marth has been doing decent against the people in my area still. I'm having some difficulty against Judo's Shiek currently, but I've been able to beat the local DKs, Snakes, Olimars, and D3s up to this point in tournament. We'll see how I do at a regional this weekend.

Ftilt is super punishable on shield. IIRC Kadaj said that even on a normal shield you can get a guaranteed fsmash. On hit at low percents you can usually dsmash/fair DDD before he can shield. You can punish ftilt on hit at higher percents as well if DDD hits you with the handle as opposed to the head of the hammer.

The best way to keep hitting DDD out, as long as they've used a couple jumps, is just letting them go high, ledge jump (DJ then if needed) and just bair/backside of nair to hit him back out over and over again. Uair will kill fairly early high on the screen as well.

Stage ban is probably FD. Delphino is lame, but most of the transformations when the stage lands you can camp out easily enough. The main flying part of the stage has platforms for you to work with.

Slowfall nair is certainly the safest landing option, but retreating FF fair is typically safe as well (spaced ofc). Nair cross-up isn't particularly reliable, although it can work at times. FH fair is the most reliable one you have to approach with. Stick *mostly* to nair when zoning as well. You can punish ftilt on shield with pretty much your entire moveset so don't be afraid to dsmash to get him in the air/fsmash to get him offstage if you can react quickly enough. And if DDD dashes at you, and you're expecting a shield, just grab him first. RAR bair (I'm assuming retreated) will just forfeit stage control. Alternatively, dash through him and pivot grab him. FH fair over his head and land safely, etc. RAR bair will just hurt his shield a little bit and I guess hit him if he preemptively tries to shield grab.

This is definitely one of Marth's most annoying MUs for sure though. Just ask P-3.

Vs Sheik you just really need to watch your jumps to minimize needles and try you hardest to get Sheik onto the ledge. If you're able to get Sheik on the ledge, she can't reliably get off. I've managed entire stocks off of ScaryLB from getting him to the ledge at low percents. Just play really reactionary and safe overall.

 

[Lord Chair]

well ****stake

 

[Kel]

Sorry guys, I got lazy with that sentence. I did not mean Marth should RAR a D3, I meant when D3 dashes you can expect a shield or RAR bair (per pierce).

I did not think Ftilt was that punishable. It seems like it would have to at least be buffered into stutter step fsmash to hit D3 out of his Ftilt. DB is typically my go-to move on the ground and FH fair in the air.

Judo is just really really good with Shiek and I need to learn the MU. I'm assuming that if he's on the ledge I should SH FF nairs, right? Needles are very annoying and all of shiek's moves seem to outspeed marth when in application.

 

[C.J.]

Yes, if DDD dashes then those are the two most likely options.

DB is certainly the easiest, but (again, iirc) Kadaj said fsmash is very doable.

When you have sheik on the ledge I wouldn't jump much honestly. Tricks with the chain can throw off your timing. Just walk, very slowly, back and forth right outside Sheik's ledge attack range and just react. Learn the different starts for the animations for Sheik on the ledge and you should be able to react to most things she does on the ledge.

In general, it's difficult to outzone sheik because of her movespeed/mobility/needles. You just need to stay close enough to her where needles aren't safe to use but be able to react to her movements. Beating sheik is mostly about just reacting to her moving imo.

 

[Lord Chair]

i would actually strongly recommend mixing up low cooldown moves at the ledge when sheik is hanging there, she has no answer to any of it, her ledge options are poor

 

[clowsui]

not going to a tournament this weekend, getting videos vs Count/Avarice/hadesblade though. Will get videos vs Diddy/MK(?)/Yoshi/DDD

I'd like a little more detail about dtilt. Why is it useful vs. DDD/how should I use it? Right now I just retreat dtilt to check his feet and to make sure he isn't dashing/dash shielding too much but I keep getting ftilted lol

 

[C.J.]

Perhaps. In my experience vs ScaryLB/ED it's when I jump that he usually tends to get back onstage.

Then again he's a far better player than I am so that very well may be it xD.

 

[clowsui]

How about the fact that your reaction time is awful LOL

in addition to walking at the ledge vs sheik i'd add ff fair/flashing block a couple times just to make sure she's scared in the case that you mess up and she lands on stage

 

[Pierce7d]

Hey, I know this MU is in our favor, but I can't figure out a sure-fire way to take on Olimar... What should I do? (T_T)

Search back several pages where I posted an extensive outline on the Olimar MU

How punishable is Ftilt on shield though? Does Marth have to power shield in order to beat ftilt? I have been playing this match up a bunch lately but I wanted to see what the general algorhythms were that other Marth mains used.

If you powershield, you can get a cleaner reward, but it's not necessary. However, it's easier if powershielded, and if you're not confident in your response time, then don't try to punish a spaced Ftilt that you did not powershield. Just don't underestimate the cooldown of the move. Think of it like Marth's Ftilt in terms of range to safety. Appears to have a lot of range and is safe, but is very deceptive in nature about it's cooldown.

Right now I'm trying to figure out my best approach/ goal from a neutral position and the best way to edge guard D3. I have no problem getting him to up B, it just seems that I cannot really do anything effective to hit him back off repeatedly.

Dash zoning into Nair is the best. Fairing him off the stage and forcing a low recovery is also good. Once he UpBs, just fair him off. A good D3 will recover with UpB very high, but obviously this enables you a free hit. Bair is also successful at hitting him off without trading. Footstooling a low recovering D3 is also very good, especially if you can footstool spike well.

I'm also guessing that you want to ban Delfino vs D3 and to keep to stages like SV or Yoshi for platforms (assuming BF is banned).

I ban Castle Siege. I typically select Battlefield and Lylat, and do not mind to pick Brinstar in this MU if it's legal.

So I've reaffirmed what I thought about the MU: Falling nair is our only safe option to get back to the stage. Our approach options are FH fair or nair cross up. Our trigger reactions are to DB ftilt (only when we power shielded), and when D3 Dashes assume a shield will pop up, RAR bair.

There are no safe landing options if you do not have enough space to drift away. In this instance, retreat to the edge, then make a read from there.

My Marth has been doing decent against the people in my area still. I'm having some difficulty against Judo's Shiek currently, but I've been able to beat the local DKs, Snakes, Olimars, and D3s up to this point in tournament. We'll see how I do at a regional this weekend.

A truly good Sheik will just camp Marth forever and ever. The more potent you get at Marth, the better you will get against Sheik. It's an excellent character who forces Marth to just be good at Marth. Tricks and tips don't win the MU for you as much as solid play and good reads.

you dont have to PS ftilt in order to punish it, especially not with DB

True

you must realize that at really low percentages, its even unsafe on hit[/I

True

nair crossup isnt a viable approach in any matchup

False. I would revise to say, Nair cross-up is rarely the optimal approach.

Yes, if DDD dashes then those are the two most likely options.

DB is certainly the easiest, but (again, iirc) Kadaj said fsmash is very doable.

When you have sheik on the ledge I wouldn't jump much honestly. Tricks with the chain can throw off your timing. Just walk, very slowly, back and forth right outside Sheik's ledge attack range and just react. Learn the different starts for the animations for Sheik on the ledge and you should be able to react to most things she does on the ledge.

In general, it's difficult to outzone sheik because of her movespeed/mobility/needles. You just need to stay close enough to her where needles aren't safe to use but be able to react to her movements. Beating sheik is mostly about just reacting to her moving imo.

I definitely do zone hitboxes at the ledge, but you have to make sure not to fall into pattern. Also, anticipating and reacting to Sheik's movement is a large part of the MU, this is true.

i would actually strongly recommend mixing up low cooldown moves at the ledge when sheik is hanging there, she has no answer to any of it, her ledge options are poor

True again

I'd like a little more detail about dtilt. Why is it useful vs. DDD/how should I use it? Right now I just retreat dtilt to check his feet and to make sure he isn't dashing/dash shielding too much but I keep getting ftilted lol

Dtilt is not a primary zoning tool. Dtilt is a pressure tool. When you land a successful aerial on block, and your opponent is unable to punish it, you can follow-up with Dtilt, because it will continue to generate safe pressure. That will always be the best usage of Dtilt. Dtilt does not have enough range to parry approaches, because Dashing shield has an effect. You should almost always use retreating Fair if you are unsure of how to parry the opponent's approach. Landing a Dtilt on shield after landing a spaced aerial ensures that your dtilt is safe and spaced, and will force your opponent to act. You will then be able to make a read, condition them, or force them into losing stage control if you do not stab or land a clean hit.

 

[Kel]

Got 2nd out of 40 at the tournament. I lost to Boss' Luigi. I was actually pretty surprised that I didn't get completely ***** considering I had never played that MU before and Boss plays with Neo.

I have three videos from this event for singles: two vs wario (Blue Rogue and Pops) and one vs Luigi (Boss). There are a bunch of videos from teams (OS and I won teams), but I know no one cares about teams.
http://www.twitch.tv/ougamingarts/b/310500575 My sets start around 9:22:00.

I ended up using D3 against Mr Eric's ROB. This still seems like a really, really hard MU for Marth. I don't get how Marth is supposed to outspace ROB, deal with his camping, and live with the fact that Marth can die at any percent from ROB off stage, but Marth cannot gimp ROB. If anyone has any tips (no pun intended) vs ROB, please tell; but I play with OS and Mr Eric, so I consider myself pretty well-versed in ROB knowledge.

Thanks guys.

 

[Shaya]

We juggle him extremely well and gay him on the ledge to a RIDICULOUS degree.
Kadaj could prob cover what ever else is in the mu, he believes its Marth's advantage.

 

[C.J.]

Great job Kel!

I'll look at the matches sometime this week- just go post them in the right part of the Marth boards =p

 

[Pierce7d]

I firmly believe Rob beats Marth. i zone with Nair and treat the MU like D3 but I am not the best at the MU, and cannot even take games off Holy or Ocean. In tournament, I just use Falco.

Congratulations on your performance, and glad to hear Overswarm is still mixing it up, I love that guy.

Against Luigi, you just zone. He knows he doesn't have real approaches with his low mobility to zero disjoint combination. Because of this, he's going to rely on yout misplays by using walking spotdodges which will allow him to break zoning. Alternatively, he might cross-up roll. If he walks in and spot dodges, then jabs, you have only a 6 frame window to hit him. With practice, this is not hard, but there are few luigis to play.

You cannot use Dancing Blade in anticipation of a spot dodge, because if he rolls, you will be subject to death by upB. Also, do not spotdodge, because jab and waiting for UpB beat it anyway.

Don't be afraid to roll towards Luigi as he approaches you either. Even those your hitboxes destroy him, it's good to maximize your mix-ups.

 

[Kel]

Yeah I learned about the missing an Over B = Up B for Luigi thing in teams pretty quickly.

Honestly I was doing fine at keeping Boss at the right spot. He almost never benefitted from rolling vs me in singles. It was Luigi's down B that I had a hard time with. The down B would pop me up just enough to allow Luigi to start comboing me.

My second match vs boss I essentially gave away because I wanted to experiment with edge guarding. You'll see my first stock I just drop down trying to fair out of his recovery, missing, and dying for it fairly early.

I can see this MU being in Marth's favor (luigi vs Marth that is), but I just couldn't compete with boss' knowledge of his character and the Marth MU from his Neo experience.

ROB is a different story. I agree with Pierce. Mr Eric says the MU is as even as a MU gets in smash and OS says Marth wins (but OS always says ROB sucks). It really seems like ROB wins in every aspect of the MU to me. Marth can shut down ROB easily getting off the ledge, but ROB has an up B that can go under all stages and fly high into the air. There's no real reason for ROB to recover where you could hit him back off that easily.

I'm really interested in hearing Kadaj's side of the story because I have decent ROB experience as well and I have always thought ROB beats Marth. I remember arguing with Emblem Lord over it a couple years back.

 

[Pierce7d]

I definately don't feel like the MU is unwinnable, but I do feel it's Rob's favor. He just camps better.

 

[Mister Eric]

I'll throw in my thoughts later.

 

[Sylarius]

Any tips on how to play the Marth ditto? Please don't post stuff like "Go MK", it's a legitimate question.
Practicing ICs for that case but I have to the ditto online. It's ridiculously hard to CG on wifi.

 

[ScareMl]

Any tips on how to play the Marth ditto? Please don't post stuff like "Go MK", it's a legitimate question.
Practicing ICs for that case but I have to the ditto online. It's ridiculously hard to CG on wifi.

f-tilt is very good in this MU. you saw me using it quite a bit agianst you. when they jump toward you or are on a platform above you, f-tilt. That's all i have because i suck really bad at the ditto too.