Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Kel]

So, new character it is?

 

[clowsui]

You should go back to Snake as a second! He goes even with DDD (or loses, according to Atomsk lol) and he'll take care of your ICs/ROB/Diddy problem too

 

[C.J.]

I don't think you need to, it's definitely a winnable MU.

People don't learn new characters for a -1 MU, it's really not worth it. Aggressive Marth does really really well in a lot of MUs. DDD is one of the few MUs where Marth has to be incredibly patient and careful. If you have matches of you vs DDD saved, I'd be willing to bet that most of the big problems you faced were just because of you not being quite patient enough.

Don't get me wrong, DDD is a hard MU, but it's certainly winnable. I'm bad and took 4GOD to game 3 last game, last stock (mid %s) and he's an incredible player.

@Clow, Snake is even with/super barely beats DDD, barely beats Diddy, even vs ROB (like Marth), and even vs IC (probably).

Just stay Marth and you'll figure out the MUs.

 

[Atomsk_92]

2-1 btw .

 

[Coney]

I'm also of the opinion Snake beats DDD btw

But your Snake better be really really good.

 

[Shaya]

Marth can definitely do very well in the dedede match up with good grab game (well spaced pressure usually lends itself to you getting a grab after a sword swipe or three). fthrow is pretty strong against dedede at all percents.

 

[ScareMl]

metaknight

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm also of the opinion Snake beats DDD btw

But your Snake better be really really good.

Sounds like that Pikachu-Marth and Marth-Olimar theorycraft.

 

[C.J.]

Sounds like that Pikachu-Marth and Marth-Olimar theorycraft.

You mean the theorycraft that says that the MUs are even which is what people are starting to believe?

 

[Sylarius]

Why are people unsure of a ditto match being even? I don't see how it's advantageous becauase the characters are exactly the same.
The only difference that tips it is aggrressive playstyle, etc. And that's the player's ability and ratio being determined, not the character.
It's like saying Marth vs Marth is even, but it's not because one player is better, which is looking at player skill not pure char vs char matchups.
I don't understand how Marth vs Marth couldn't be even...

<3 Peace btw. =)

 

[C.J.]

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Shaya]

Marth gets ***** by Marth, but it's still an even match up because of course the two are the same character.
Just means that the match up is extremely frustrating + hard to win against anyone who has any idea how to play him.

 

[Kuro~]

I don't think you need to, it's definitely a winnable MU.

People don't learn new characters for a -1 MU, it's really not worth it. Aggressive Marth does really really well in a lot of MUs. DDD is one of the few MUs where Marth has to be incredibly patient and careful. If you have matches of you vs DDD saved, I'd be willing to bet that most of the big problems you faced were just because of you not being quite patient enough.

Don't get me wrong, DDD is a hard MU, but it's certainly winnable. I'm bad and took 4GOD to game 3 last game, last stock (mid %s) and he's an incredible player.

@Clow, Snake is even with/super barely beats DDD, barely beats Diddy, even vs ROB (like Marth), and even vs Snake (probably).

Just stay Marth and you'll figure out the MUs.

"Snake is even with...and even vs snake(probably)"

Guessing he's referring to that. Wording is a bit odd.

 

[C.J.]

Huh, I didn't even realize I said that, it should have been IC.
/goes to edit.

Syl- quote posts next time please so I know what you're referring to =)

 

[Zano]

marth vs marth is a -4 MU

 

[Kuro~]

marth vs marth is a -4 MU

Marth vs marth is +4 in black marth's favor.

Too bad i use red...

 

[Sylarius]

I was on Wiinet when I typed that and I was being lazy, sorry.
Eh, forgot my question, I'll post back when I remember it.

EDIT:

Huh, I didn't even realize I said that, it should have been IC.
/goes to edit.

Syl- quote posts next time please so I know what you're referring to =)

 

[Pierce7d]

I think Marth and D3 is even. I typically win the MU, and lose to better players.

Kel, your best bet from getting more advice from me regarding this MU is to pm me a link to you losing to a D3

 

[Pierce7d]

In my opinion Marth beats Pika and Oli, both slightly, and Snake beats ROB and loses to D3

 

[DKMikey]

I am confused as to how to grab release MK into a fair or dair. I try going into practice mode, but my marth never makes it in time.

Edit: Not to practice mode, but in time to hit MK with a f/dair.

 

[ScareMl]

fair is relatively easy, just run and hold forward jump fair. you should start dashing right as mk starts his descent from your air release. dair is a bit tricky. you have only a 3 frame window to dair him, so your timing has to be real precise. but it's the same fundamental thing. dash as he begins his decent and hold forward jump--> dair.

 

[Kuro~]

Counter
Counter frames: 4-27
End: 59

THis was in the frame data thread.

Is the one named "counter frames" referring to how long the window is to counter something?

If not how long after u hit down-b can u still counter a hit, frame-wise?

 

[DKMikey]

Counter
Counter frames: 4-27
End: 59

THis was in the frame data thread.

Is the one named "counter frames" referring to how long the window is to counter something?

If not how long after u hit down-b can u still counter a hit, frame-wise?

To answer your question, I would assume so.

The counter comes out on frame 4. During frames 4-27, if you get hit, Marth shall counter. During 27-59, you cannot make another move, and if you get hit Marth will not counter.

fair is relatively easy, just run and hold forward jump fair. you should start dashing right as mk starts his descent from your air release. dair is a bit tricky. you have only a 3 frame window to dair him, so your timing has to be real precise. but it's the same fundamental thing. dash as he begins his decent and hold forward jump--> dair.

I love you. What was really giving me trouble is that I didn't know you had to start after MK begins his descent.

 

[Sylarius]

The dash should be started as soon as you can, Marth's cooldown for his air release grab ends right about when MK starts his descent towards his death.

Usually for me I do it off memory instead of looking at MK though.
For practicing tipper spacing, is it suggested to play CPUs and go in training? That's what I've been doing for the most part and I SS my fsmashes now in order to get the right spacing.
I can do it consistently under the platforms on battlefield now, but I was wondering if there was any other methods of practice.

 

[Kel]

No one has any high level D3 VS Marth vids?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The match-up hardly ever happens at the highest level. Wherever there are good Marth players, there are no good DDD players and vice versa. The best players that recently did the set were Skelerex and Leon but it's not really a set you can actually base the match-up on.

Snake is a good second for Marth but you also have to be really good with him to actually beat DDD consistently - so good that you might as well start maining him. If that's not what you want to do then you should either learn the match-up somehow or use Falco vs DDD. Falco does **** ROB after all.

 

[Sylarius]

Is there a list of Marth's moves that beat tornado? That was the question I was looking for :S
Or what are Marth's moves that beat tornado*?

 

[C.J.]

His specials, usmash if he's that far over your head for some reason, fsmash, dsmash clanks with grounded nado, all his aerials if you hit it from the top.

 

[Sylarius]

Shield breaker and dancing blade beat tornado? o.O
Also can Marth pivot grab tornado?
Thanks also for that information CJ.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DB definetly can because it has great range and is trascendant. So I imagine SB doing it as well, but it would be much harder to hit with that....

 

[C.J.]

SB has longer range than DB and is also trancendant... it's easier to do it with SB, lol.

DB can beat it, but the spacing is hard and will usually trade (4 damage on him to 1 on you). However, that's kind of better because you'll be buffering the second hit of DB already, which will just be the first hit of DB and you'll hit him again.

Everyone can PG nado. It's technically possible to shieldgrab a non-staled, grounded nado between hits on your shield.

 

[Foodies]

Is there a way to get out of tornado? (Like a specific way to DI/SDI or something) It probably depends on which way the MK moves, but I was wondering if anyone had any general tips. I remember reading about DI'ing up and footstooling somewhere, but I never see it happening. DS works some of the time, but...yeah.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

As long as the MK tornadoes correctly, you can't SDI out of it. You could probably try footstooling out of it if he does it incorrectly. Thats just the general knowledge I know, not really character specific.

 

[Shaya]

M2K used to say that you can mash in any direction (if you mash 'properly') and have about a 50% chance of getting out. The general conclusion though is that you don't SDI out of tornado. Avoiding it has a lot to do with maybe one lucky ASDI / SDI tick suddenly having your "in stun" animation have a reduced hurtbox to avoid the next consecutive hit allowing you to air dodge/jump/footstool.

 

[Cassio]

Actually Prime has a video showing that nado has no hitstun and therefore cant be SDId. Ill link it later. It pops you out randomly, but one thing Ive noticed is that if youre hit from the ground theres a strong chance youll be popped up from the initial hit.

 

[Kuro~]

You can't sdi but u can DI the initial hit. WIth characters like marth,fox, peach, etc. this can make a big difference.

 

[Shaya]

As I said, you can't SDI it, but I bet da kang still mashes, as do I
Wasn't it something like that a tornado with any decay at all has nothing to SDI but a fresh one has some hits able to be sdi'd?

 

[Kel]

Pros are always able to get out of nado it seems. It has a lot to do with when/ where the nado hits and from what angle. The first hit pops high so if he hits with the later parts it's more likely to keep people in.

I never thought D3 had a solid advantage over snake, even back in 08 I had the match up as 50/50 to slightly d3 favor. Samurai panda thought I was nuts, but I held that if the Snake knows how to shield pressure the D3, the MU becomes better. I still wouldn't go snake against D3. Too much learning curve. I'd rather play Marth, but no one seems to have a game plan that works.


Coney, Atomsk, what do Marths do in this match up that make you frustrated? Does he have any tools that you watch out for? What are you looking for specifically in order to get a grab? Any help from either side is appreciated. thanks guys.

 

[ScareMl]

so speaking of nado, looking at it from the mk's perspective, how does he control nado correctly so that we can't di/ds/footstool/AD out of it?

 

[ぱみゅ]

If Tornado keeps hitting with the tip, opponents are likely to scape. Same if Tornado is moving around.
The bottom hitbox is tricky as well, it may pops opponents up too much if they are grounded.
The "best" way I have found thus far is, once you confirm the hit, move it to trap oponents inside it.

Also, depending on the characters height and weight, some are more able to scape than others.


Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.