Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[C.J.]

From what I've been told/can see from the hitbubbles, you want to keep characters in the corners. If you keep them in the middle the have distance to fall into the bottom hitbox of the move which is how people tend to escape. However, by keeping them in the corner they're not needed to fall anywhere to get to another hitbox so it traps them. Unfortunately, this means you can't really move the nado after someone gets hit by it (they will then fall outside of it or into the middle) allowing them an opportunity to escape.

This also explains why lighter characters (fox) and floatier characters (Samus) are easier to keep inside it. Lighter ones will be knocked away farther per hit allowing more time to fall thus more chance to footstool/aeral/special out of the move. Same thing applies to floaty characters (instead of farther hit, they just fall back into it slower).

 

[Kel]

Depending on where you hit, and what angle, and the weight of the character being hit, MK can keep people in the hitbox by mashing B. I find that when people are trying to mash up/ di that if I mash B (rising the nado) they are more likely to stay in the hitbox. If they dont mash it's typically better to only hit B when you need to keep the tornado going (sinking tornado).

For example, if someone is airdodging into the ground at an angle I would rising tornado to keep them in the nado. If they are hitting the ground at a 90 degree angle I believe I would be more likely to not mash the nado as much. It's hard to explain 4 years of experience with the move in one paragraph, but that's generally what I did and it worked. I'm pretty good with the nado, as some match ups used it 90% of the time.

 

[Coney]

Coney, Atomsk, what do Marths do in this match up that make you frustrated? Does he have any tools that you watch out for? What are you looking for specifically in order to get a grab?

Intelligent dancing blades are a serious issue. If our shield isn't ~80%, it'll poke (always do the poking one, by the way, the green multi-hit one). Air play can be bad for DDD if you're good, it's my best asset as a player but most DDDs get uncomfortable off the ground...if you're in front of them, there's honestly nothing they can do, as fair is too slow and you can bait an airdodge.

fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > tipper fsmash does a lot and is gay.

If you get CG'd, always walk away. Nothing else. Don't dolphin slash, don't dancing blade, just walk. If he's going to mess up, it's going to leave you in the best position and if he doesn't, there's nothing you could have done anyway. Most people dolphin slash but if he reads it, you could die at ~40% from fsmash.

Usually kill with tipper aerials, I think.

Not looking for anything specific, but the risk/reward of grabbing is usually fairly low enough that I can spam it. If I miss, I eat ~11% or so, and if I get it, I get a CG into bthrow for about [(9x) + 16]. Big difference.

Basically, whole matchup is about making DDD feel uncomfortable. His low mobility makes him susceptible to all sorts of baits and punishes, but you better make sure you're on-point with them because one mistake will cost you a whole hell of a lot more than him. Whittle him down.

 

[-LzR-]

D3 can't shieldgrab between the hits of dancing blade?

 

[C.J.]

He can between 3 and 4.

 

[Kel]

Coney, that pretty much summed up what I'm experiencing right now with the MU. At low percents I've noticed I can combo fairs into DBs and whatnot, but if I'm not spot-on I eat way too much damage to be worth it. I play D3, so I know about his shield issues, but I was just wondering if there are any instances you can think of when the D3 is not as safe as he may seem.

When we are starting at neutral positions how should marth approach? Slowly walking in and staying out of grab range? Dash toward with a full hop fair? What are D3s bad stages in the MU? Whats the best way for Marth to punish each move/ what's Marth's most reliable kill move in this MU?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I have 4 years to make up for with this character. So far I've taken the advice I've been given and been able to improve vastly. There are just a lot of Diddys, DKs, D3s, ROBs, and ICs in my area, so I have a steep learning curve.

 

[Lord Chair]

dont space or zone d3 with fair

use nair

 

[C.J.]

You obviously zone with nair. You approach with FH fair though. Approaching nair isn't that good... at all. You then space out a landing with nair.

 

[Lord Chair]

depends on what you call an approach in this MU

if it means actually landing anywhere in grab range rather than aggressive shield pressure then no, approaching with nair is meh, approaching with fair would be meh, too

 

[Payne]

I feel REALLY noobish for asking this but I am brand new to Marth and I got two questions:

1: Whats the best DI option for marth?

2: The grab release infinite.. Is it limited to certain characters or can I use it on everyone?

 

[Sylarius]

DI applies to everyone. When hit horizontally you want to DI to the top forward, so if hit left you want to DI to the top right.
When hit horizontally just DI to the sides.

Also his infinite only applies to Ness and Lucas because when ground grab released, they have an extra 10 frames where they can't do anything, and Marth's grab range is large enough to regrab them and it only takes 6 frames.

 

[DKMikey]

Quick question about SDI. How does it help me survive when I get hit?

Also, I understand what DI and SDI are and how they affect my movement (for example, where to DI and to SDI during hitstun of multiple moves), but how do people use SDI to survive to a higher percent?

If the question isn't clear enough:
Snake uses Uptilt when Marth is at ~110%.
Marth DI's towards the top right corner of the stage, momentum cancels with a fair, and double jumps/fast falls (depending on what's required.) Where does SDI fit in to this situation?

 

[Sylarius]

Snake's utilt doesn't have much hitlag so it's really hard to SDI it. Here's a nice video though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecrl_hzvPlM

 

[C.J.]

.....

Let's say you're next to the ledge and get hit. You're X far away from the blastzone and you have X distance to travel before you die. Now you get hit in the same spot and you SDI Y distance into the stage. Now you have X+Y distance to travel before you die.

Obviously, this is compounded a lot when DI gets thrown into the mix as well.

 

[Jeos]

SDI saves lives...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Uhv47JtGt-Y#t=722s

 

[Kuro~]

SDI saves lives...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Uhv47JtGt-Y#t=722s

I don't that think was sdi. That looked like normal DI tbh. Plus, can't u not sdi when marth tippers a hitbox?

 

[C.J.]

That was very obviously SDI. MK moved to the right noticeably before he started moving down.

You can't SDI Marth's tipper fsmash, the other tippers are fair game though.

 

[DKMikey]

Snake's utilt doesn't have much hitlag so it's really hard to SDI it. Here's a nice video though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecrl_hzvPlM

Watched that video a few days ago. Was fantastic, but it really only explained how to escape multi-hit moves.

.....

Let's say you're next to the ledge and get hit. You're X far away from the blastzone and you have X distance to travel before you die. Now you get hit in the same spot and you SDI Y distance into the stage. Now you have X+Y distance to travel before you die.

Obviously, this is compounded a lot when DI gets thrown into the mix as well.

Ah, I gotcha. Thanks for the explanation!

That was very obviously SDI. MK moved to the right noticeably before he started moving down.

You can't SDI Marth's tipper fsmash, the other tippers are fair game though.

I thought it would be a combination of both (unless you were already referring to that, in which case sorry). Also, yay tipper fsmash for having 0 hitlag!

 

[Kuro~]

That was very obviously SDI. MK moved to the right noticeably before he started moving down.

You can't SDI Marth's tipper fsmash, the other tippers are fair game though.

Ya you're right. I missed that triangle arc initially.

 

[Sylarius]

Also, yay tipper fsmash for having 0 hitlag!

It has hitlag, moreso than Marth's non tippered fsmash. The SDI multiplier for it is x0 though.

Hitlag is when you hit your opponent and you're both frozen temporarily, it's more noticeable in attacks like CF's Knee and ZSS's side b. Marth's fsmash tipper has a noticeable amount of hitlag, but the SDI multiplier is x0, which means any SDI input is multiplied by x0 = a total of 0 SDI, which is why it can't be SDI'd.

 

[Nicholas1024]

What's the best way to get around/punish Lucario's F-smash? The ones I've played throw it out a lot, and I'm not entirely sure how to stop it.

 

[Kuro~]

Use nair. It can outrange his fsmash.

 

[C.J.]

What's the best way to get around/punish Lucario's F-smash? The ones I've played throw it out a lot, and I'm not entirely sure how to stop it.

Spotdodges (if you're amazing and know they're not going to charge it... yeah don't use them), PS-> DB, DS if the fsmash is poorly spaced, nair, cross-up into X when you think they're going to use it.

Use nair. It can outrange his fsmash.

Kinda sorta almost. It doesn't outrage it, but it beats it in a similar way that nair beats ZSS's sideB/dsmash. Since the attack angles down, you can be over the hitbox while nair chops down onto Lucario.

 

[Kuro~]

Or you can be a boss and DJ dair

Lol lucarios fsmash is a time i love arrows.../dashawaypivotarrow

 

[Lord Chair]

DJ dair what the hell

 

[ScareMl]

this is marth, not pit.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

What do you guys do against ICs blizzard?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nair trades hits if well spaced, iirc....

 

[C.J.]

Nair trades second hit and you take ~1%. Fair can trade from specific angles from above. If you jump far enough into it, counter can trade, but it's not guaranteed. SB is the easiest.

 

[Lord Chair]

or you just jump in, SDI and fair

 

[Orion*]

You can't SDI Marth's tipper fsmash

its broken

 

[BC.]

What are some ways Marth can safely approach/apply pressure to Olimar?
Also, what is the most effective dancing blade combo to cancel into dolphin slash?

 

[Nicholas1024]

There was a discussion on this a few pages back, here's some quotes for you.

fortunately for you, I read this thread on my phone when I'm out of the house, and waiting, and need to burn time.

In today's meta, Olimar revolves around repelling approaches and dealing poison damage while the opponent is distant. Marth is able to approach in such a way that Marth can bridge the distance very easily. Since Olimar's grab is frame 11, Marth can approach falling fair safely. Olimar's shield is subpar, so Dancing Blade is very effective.

Marth's combination of high mobilty on ground, high mobility in the air, and long range makes it so that Marth can consistently break Olimar's zoning, so long as the Marth player does not frequently fall into traps. Additionally, the reward Marth gets for landing a hit is typically massive, because can easily for Olimar to the ledge, where Marth can trap him quite effectively.

However, don't at all count Olimar out in the MU. If the Olimar has superior spacing, the Marth player will find it difficult to parry forward smash, grab, and purple toss. Olimar also has his own options of making reads via dash grab, which is a fantastic bursting move, and approaching Fair, which can hit a jump read very effective. UpB is transcendant, and does not have lag when done near the ground. This causes it to be an excellent way to parry approaches, especially jump-ins. Despite Olimar having a subpar roll, crossing up Dancing Blade is very rewarding. UpSmash kills Marth really early, and between grab and forward smash, Olimar has a powerful ledge trap on Marth as well. Whistle is quite effective on going through Marth's single hit attacks, and letting him get a very rewarding parry, making it very difficult to juggle Olimar. At the highest level of play, the MU is very slight favor Marth, but at high and mid level play, Marth wins solidly. At low level play, Olimar wins out.

Shield breaker is very important in the MU because it will trade with grab, but this will break the gra, since Olimar uses a remote grab via pikmin and never has grab armor. It will also help to break Olimar's shield, which obviously can kill him remarkably early.

It's also important to note that you can shield pikmin toss. Olimars often take advatage of extraneous motions to get rid of pikmin as ways to help make reads. Latched Pikmin can be blocked as well. Unless stuck with a white pikmin, or several pikmin, it's not efficient to hit off every pikmin, as you will get stuck with more in the cooldown of your move, if not punished entirely. Pay attention the the HP of important pikmin, especially purples, which have 15 HP. Obviously, paying attention to the line-up is also important.

For more detailed information, I recommend studying Olimar.

once you successfully land a ff aerial on Olimar's shield, you have frame advantage. However, it is not so much frame advantage that a guarenteed hit is ensured in the follow-up, and this is where reading comes into play.

Let's assume you land an imperfect FFFair on Olimar's shield. It is inside and not tippered, and results in being -7 on block.

If olimar buffers a usmash while in hit lag, it will and you block, you will get a perfect powershield. All other actions result in Marth getting hit.

If you block, and Olimar grabs, you will be grabbed, of course. However, do note that Olimar's grab is frame 11. If you perform buffered jab, then the jab and the grab will connect at the same time. However, since Olimar does not have any grab armor, he will lose the exchange.

In theory, Dancing Blade, which also hits on frame 4, should work exactly the same. However, I personally have never picked this option. Jab is less perishable if Olimar buffers a cross-up roll, and if you DO land a perfect Fair, Dancing Blade will still trade with Usmash, since it's transcendant, where as jab might beat it altogether.

In short, Olimar's Usmash out of shield is exactly the same frame as Marth's fastest option if Marth lands a perfect aerial, and otherwise will beat his offensive options if spaced inside. The obvious exception is Dolphin Slash, although this will lose if Olimar picks any defensive option. So what I traditionally do is Fair and make it seem unsafe, causing the Olimar to try and grab me, and read their option. If they continue to get hit by this, and do not Usmash OOS, then I continue to use this option. When the Olimar starts Usmashing, I take more effort to time Fairs, and hold block, or UpB. If the Olimar picks dodges, I adapt and react accordingly, as Olimars rolls are terrible, and if you are expecting it, you can Fair, block, and punish spotdododge on reaction with Usmash OOS yourself.

Of course, this is all for unspaced fairs.

if you prefer not to play the footsies with Olimar, you can always space your aerials. Forward Smash makes this diffcult because it can still clip Marth's feet, and parry his approach altogether. Of course, airdodging is not recommended, but due to the lack of commitment a forward smash requires and the duration of the hitbox while the pikman is airborne, Olimar should never use this attack in a manner where it can be punished by an airborne opponent, unless their opponent cut through it.

Of course, it isn't safe on block unless spaced well, and Marth's ground speed allows him to gain ground well. Blocking this move on the ground may lead to a punish, or put Marth is range for an offensive attempt. Of course, grounded approaches must be done carefully because of Olimar's grab. Fortunately for Marth, due to the slowness of the grab, and it's cooldown lag, Marth has the advantage of spacing. His mobility allows him to outmanuver Olimar's approach parry attempts, and simply moving requires even less commitment than Olimar's grab and forward smash. This small advantage in spacing, coupled with the powerful mid range zoning Olimar struggles to defend against, is what grants Marth a slight advantage in this MU.

I would not really use Ramin as an example of how to fight Olimar. He is a player whose talents exceed my own, but his knowledge of the match-up is lacking, and he does not know how to deal with purple pikmin correctly. Additionally, remember that the advantage is not massive at the peak of gameplay, and the more skilled player can be expected to win. That was the Japanese Olimars.

Regarding dancing blade to dolphin slash... I doubt it can be done efficiently considering DB is punishable if you don't finish the combo and will knock them away if you do, but you might try DB1 > DS, as they might not react in time. I don't really see why you'd need to though, since landing the full combo is almost as good damage-wise and DB4 (upwards variant) can kill at high percents. Hope this helps.

Now for a question of my own, what's Marth's best tool for punishing Pikachu's QAC? I know you generally want to just throw out a hitbox, but which one generally works best? I've tried a few things (jab, F-air, F-tilt), but none of them seem to work consistently.

 

[ScareMl]

d-tilt maybe. i would watch kadaj for that

 

[Kuro~]

I'd imagine uptilt with it's coverage and range.

 

[C.J.]

Well, the idea is to cover as much time and space as possible. Does anything come even close to nair in that? The hitbox is out from frame ~7 to frame ~21 while having a huge hitbox, and being able to move it during the attack.

 

[Kel]

Are there certain moves Marth can use to guarantee a hit on a character getting off the ledge. Or at least not leave Marth open if the move does not hit?

I typically just FF fair, but I was wondering if there were more practical edge tools.

 

[Shaya]

like... neutral air?

In general most of the higher tier characters at least have one good ledge option (bar poor marth, diddy and olimar) so there isn't a "LET ME CHARGE MY FSMASH LAZER HUEHUEHUEH METAKNIGHT", but ... neutral air, forward tilt, jab, dtilt, pivot grab... all cover multiple options, just not all of them.

 

[Nicholas1024]

SHFF F-air is an excellent tool for ledge traps, but I'd also mix in D-tilt and jab, as well as occasionally just shielding and waiting for the getup attack/ normal getup/ rising aerial. (Just watch out for getup attacks when spacing your offense. Although some like Marth's are little threat, others like DK's have enough range that you can't just outrange them.)

On a sorta-related note, it'd be great to revive this thread, there's so much useful information in there, and it'd be really good to add even more. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315099 Thoughts?

 

[Kel]

Shaya, isn't it 1,000,000,000,000 A.M. Over in Koala-land?