Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Jeos]

can someone give me advice on the lucario MU?

I just can't fight back those Fairs (in the air of course), no matter how much spacing I do, not even nair beats it =/

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Nair does beat Lucario's fair. But if you really aren't able to make it work, you can just stay on the ground. It's easy to beat Lucario's fair while grounded, and you still have dtilt and your grab for general options.

 

[Shaya]

Try the mixing up of rar bairs, ftilt, fully retreating and well landed nairs and don't ever forget the power of shielding things, especially if their rhythm/pattern of fairs is predictable (as in, power shield a lucario fair, get a free usmash, grab/etc)

 

[Jeos]

thanks, I'll train my ground game then and DS that horrible Fair string, because I can't enter with nair without losing or at best trading hits =/
is an effective way to counter or DB1 that? so I don't get punished for being in free fall

 

[Sylarius]

How do you do the buffered slide back pivot grab that Leon does at around 0:20 in Leon vs mikeHAZE ?
Or is there a thread that anyone can link me to?
Also more Marth ditto advice? I only got one reply

Thanks.
/questions

 

[Foodies]

Is it this? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231916

Also for Marth dittos, I don't really have specific advice (that you don't already know I'm sure) even though it's my favorite MU lol. What I like to do is just play a lot of dittos, see what the other person does, and try incorporating what they do that works.

 

[Lord Chair]

How do you do the buffered slide back pivot grab that Leon does at around 0:20 in Leon vs mikeHAZE ?
Or is there a thread that anyone can link me to?
Also more Marth ditto advice? I only got one reply

Thanks.
/questions

that was a normal pivot grab

 

[Sylarius]

Oh. Really? It looked buffered to me. Whenever I try doing that I dash dance then do a dash grab forward

 

[Jeos]

you have to press z (or whatever button you're using for grab) before pressing the stick on the opposite direction (it works with shield+A but it's harder), think like doing a b-reversal and you'll catch it

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Is DB1 legit for gimping (beating Falco's firebird and eating jumps)?
Generally asking which characters it would be useful against if at all.

 

[Shaya]

All tether recovers, zero suit samus, diddy kong, donkey kong, bowser; pretty much everyone who you'd use counter for.

But the skill level / precision required to use db1 instead is pretty high, but it's trade offs are significantly better against nearly everyone you'd pull it off with; some of the recoveries like DK/Bowser who can pump something out before you can hit them again you can pre-smash DI it.

DB1 also sets up for footstool jumps (not necessarily gimping ones, but ones which will give you a huge jump to get back on stage with) as you do somewhat maintain your height while MOST characters will actually be drifting down a little.

 

[Mister Eric]

Got 2nd out of 40 at the tournament. I lost to Boss' Luigi. I was actually pretty surprised that I didn't get completely ***** considering I had never played that MU before and Boss plays with Neo.

I have three videos from this event for singles: two vs wario (Blue Rogue and Pops) and one vs Luigi (Boss). There are a bunch of videos from teams (OS and I won teams), but I know no one cares about teams.
http://www.twitch.tv/ougamingarts/b/310500575 My sets start around 9:22:00.

I ended up using D3 against Mr Eric's ROB. This still seems like a really, really hard MU for Marth. I don't get how Marth is supposed to outspace ROB, deal with his camping, and live with the fact that Marth can die at any percent from ROB off stage, but Marth cannot gimp ROB. If anyone has any tips (no pun intended) vs ROB, please tell; but I play with OS and Mr Eric, so I consider myself pretty well-versed in ROB knowledge.

Thanks guys.

Still super salty about our set lol. You have no idea, but I'm glad you took my input error (not upsmashing you to win the set game 2) further than just 4th place. Good job at that.

I honestly can't stress how hard it is for ROB to get grounded again after being sent airborne if you know how to juggle the f**ker. Xisin would only up throw me (after stutter step tipper % of course) just so he could put on a juggling act. If you thought ROB had a hard time against MK trying to land, a good marth that knows how to juggle my fat a** is a nightmare. So far, the only other ROB player that I know of that feels the same is stingers. But that alone is what makes it so hard for me. I eat way too much % trying to land, which in my opinion, makes up for all the silly beepin stuff I can do to Marth. I also find Marth hard to camp. I mean, it's two easy to read projectiles against a character who is decently fast and has pretty fast moves. I find my projectiles best for punishing landing, eating jumps/gimping, things of that sort, but Marth should be so in-my-face that I should hardly get those opportunities; especially camping opportunities.

Threw some thoughts together right quick since I forgot to post about this sooner. I can get into more details, but I'm about to watch LoL grand finals. That's basically the jist of it tho.

Our set literally made me sick, Kel. Knowing I blew it on such a fundamental error. I honestly think you should rely on Marth in the long run for this MU, but I doubt you'll be convinced until I **** your "secondaries."

 

[Kel]

ROB has a versatile recovery that lets him go anywhere on the screen; why land on the stage directly if marth is below you? If ROB gets grabed he deserves to be juggled because getting through camping, fair, and ftilt is stupid hard for Marth. Killing Marth at 30% and ROB taking 60% from being juggled is not a 50/50 trade off IMO. ROB has projectiles, a better recovery, and longer lasting/ reaching moves. Marth's advantages are his speed and abusing your blind spot while airborne (but it's not like marth doesn't have that exact same blind spot). ROB also has a better choice from the stage list, which really affects finals games.

Don't let one input error get to you, man. We all do it. It happens. When Marths do it they lose a stock. Just bounce back, but we'll see if you '****' my D3 next time.

 

[clowsui]

I ended up using D3 against Mr Eric's ROB. This still seems like a really, really hard MU for Marth. I don't get how Marth is supposed to outspace ROB, deal with his camping, and live with the fact that Marth can die at any percent from ROB off stage, but Marth cannot gimp ROB. If anyone has any tips (no pun intended) vs ROB, please tell; but I play with OS and Mr Eric, so I consider myself pretty well-versed in ROB knowledge.

How does ROB outspace Marth when his only reliable AA vs. Marth is ftilt and, if he REALLY sees it coming, upangled Fsmash? I mean I guess he MIGHT have laser + gyro as AA options also but I don't feel those consistently work. If you're approaching ROB correctly those should be his only AAs. This is definitely not like DK where his ftilt + down b and bair mess w Marth's normal spacing patterns (and even then this MU just requires slight adjustment). ROB is also a tall character and has a bad shield so nair and DB1 are fairly effective. From there you just treat ROB ftilt like DDD ftilt and then voila

ROB camping is gay as ****. I just focus on putting ROB in bad zones with camping and forcing him to decide between hitting me with camp tools or giving up stage space. Correct stage control by ROB is pretty hard to get through though

Marth doesn't have to gimp ROB, he just has to hit him with 90% worth of moves. Vs OS I did at least half of my damage from putting him offstage and then getting him on the ledge. Also how is ROB gimping you? Margin of error v ROB (i.e. recovering correctly btu not getting gimped and also not taking 39048301948 damage from choosing to come onstage) is really low, I'll admit, but this is no different than say DDD or Falco MUs if you recover poorly

BTW short answer to all your Luigi problems: play gayer. Luigi down B isn't a problem if you conserve your shield correctly and it's fairly unsafe @ most ranges because of that. It does force guessing games with his bair though I will admit. I tend to just choose to give up stage vs Luigi a lot so that I can try to "feel" out his down B because he doesn't actually have anything solid on Marth after that. You were doing the right thing v Boss at least from what I saw.

EDIT: stingers wasn't playing that well here but Kevin Nanney/Dr PeePee is maybe the biggest reason why Stingers hates this MU http://youtu.be/No6TG1xRS3w

 

[clowsui]

Double post, but I PM'd PP a month before MLG Columbus asking for advice on the MU. Here's what he had to say:

Alright, so our big issue here is getting past ROBs defenses that are ready to be used no matter where you are on the screen.

Super long range- laser typically.

Fairly long range- laser or gyro.

Medium range- laser/gyro/Ftilt.

After this, it typically means you either broke into ROB's Ftilt spacing or he went in close for a grab or he tried some aerial that you shielded. If you broke ROB's Ftilt spacing, then you might have gotten a hit(which would be good because DB OOS would set ROB up for juggles, which he struggles at dealing with).

If he got his shield up, then you have to be careful at how you poke at him. Crossing him up leads to a Dsmash OOS(sets up for damage racking/edgeguard) or a Bair OOS(sets up edgeguard/kills) if you execute poorly, so you have to be careful on that end. DB is fast enough when you cross him up with like a SHFF Fair to stuff his OOS options, but it obviously isn't spammable. You do get to start messing with ROB's head once he quits trying to get OOS immediately when you go behind him though.
From the front, ROB can Fair or Ftilt OOS, both really quick options. I typically poke with Dtilt on ROB's shield(his shield sucks and Dtilt leads to stuff like more Dtilts or Fairs or DB or grabs....have fun with em) and mix in DB hits and Fairs as well. Trading is generally alright vs ROB's Ftilt, so don't worry about it too much. If you think ROB will Fair OOS, then try to shield/powershield it and you can punish him for it. Trading with ROB's Fair isn't really worth it unless you use something like an Ftilt, and that's mildly risky to use when ROB is shielding, but the probable return Ftilt punish of like 7% isn't bad.

Oh yeah, I deal with lasers and gyros by PS'ing(powershielding) them. You could glide toss the gyros but I'm not crazy about the option.

Oh yeah, one more thing about shield pressure vs ROB, Nair likes to shield poke since ROB's shield blows, so I'll mix that up aggressively and passively as needed since it can serve a very good job of pushing ROB up(for juggles) and out(for edgeguards) well. Also a good way to try and get kills if you find yourself conserving Nair.

If ROB sticks you in your shield, then he probably jabbed you at close range and is about to grab you. If your shield gets jabbed a dolphin slash is usually a good idea. Otherwise you probably won't shield many physical attacks aside from Ftilt or aerials(which will be spaced pretty hard) and dolphin slash usually doesn't punish them well.

For juggles, ROB is really fun. His Dair sucks and he doesn't fall quickly or have good aerial mobility, so you can get under him and keep baiting airdodges and swatting him. He can Nair as a mixup which is a sucky trade, but counter or an early Uair can stuff that.
When you're being juggled, ROB likes to Uair you or bait your airdodge and do Dsmashes/aerials when you land and punish your silly landing lag. Depending on the ROB, it may be a good idea to airdodge early in a match so you don't get Uair'd and then start countering close to the ground so you don't get aerial'd and edgeguarded/die early.

On edgeguarding.....

Marth doesn't really edgeguard ROB. He just kind of hits ROB a lot until ROB gets back to the edge. Grabbing the edge isn't too bad vs ROB, but you have to be wary of rising Uairs/Nairs that can destroy your control if he's below/diagonally down from you. ROB will willingly Fair trade with you if he can help it so he doesn't take heavy damage, so bait that with empty SHs onstage or edge regrabs and then punish as necessary. Spiking is very tempting but typically unrealistic, so I advise against it. When/if ROB gets swatted from the side too much, he may go above you, so get ready to set up your juggles again. As a final reminder, ROB has to aerial before he can airdodge after using his up-B, so the aerials can be baited somewhat easily/you can swat him early before he can airdodge if he isn't expecting you to attack.
When Marth is being edgeguarded, there isn't a lot of hope. It will typically involve ROB baiting the airdodge and then Fair/Bairing you. Try to fall down with Fairs or mix up your airdodge timings as much as possible, and I've even had success with up-B'ing when ROB has tried to Fair me and fallen to the edge/knocking ROB away in my invincibility.

 

[Mister Eric]

When you adapt more to the MU, Kel, which I'm sure you will, it will soon enough become a juggling act. AND THEN YOU SHALL SEEEEEEEEE
;3

 

[Kel]

That's like saying "the ice climbers just throw you a lot." They have to get the grab first and Marth has to land the hit.

Keeping ROB in the air is not a decent trade for Marth dying at 30%. You and OS play opposite ROBs and I have the same problem with both of you.

 

[Shaya]

Do you have videos of these 30% deaths you're talking about?

Marth recovering with dolphin slash at a good angle can get past the back air gimps (which, yeah, are pretty auto win otherwise).

 

[Kel]

Please explain, because Mr Eric put me in a situation at low percent where I was forced to attempt to recover terribly. Even Overswarm, who invented modern ROB and swears that ROB is awful in every way imaginable knows that the BAIR gimp is solid. I'm curious how to get around it.

 

[Shaya]

I'd say a 75 degree angle aiming for your (upper) hand to clip the ledge. From an immediate ledge drop there is an available gap. It's the same way we have to recover to not be gayed by MK's neutral air.

 

[-LzR-]

I have a really hard time dealing with Marths fair unless I have a move that can outrange it or just beat it (like Robs ftilt). I just get pressured into the ledge where I get *****. What do? Dashing shields and reading how he fairs and trying to powershield is what I do currently, but it's hard to do with ICs thanks to their low traction and hard to powershield with both of them. Any tips? D:

 

[Pierce7d]

don't play ICs. They're lame.

 

[B.A.M.]

I would love to see this low percent gimp on Marth. I wouldnt be surprised, I have been going through some frame data and some tech, theres some dumb gimps that are pretty hard with marth to deal with imo. Especially if you know how to beat out DS.


@ Shaya, you can just hit Marth from the backside or front if you actually have timing. Or you could just be like sonic and LOL dair for free.

 

[majinvegeta010688]

I would really like to know where the video compilation thread went because there were alot of videos in in that thread that had matches between vitrually every character but now that there is that other thread that has very few videos and no where near the amount of match ups.

 

[Foodies]

Here's the old video thread: www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269641
I think the MU section was deleted though. Or maybe it was an older version of the thread that had it, I'm not sure.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

any good videos of Marth vs Ice Climber matches? Picking him up for ICs and Pikachu.

 

[Zano]

why would you pick him up for those specifically? Other characters counter them much better.

 

[C.J.]

Search for kadaj

 

[Jimmyfosho]

why would you pick him up for those specifically? Other characters counter them much better.

I don't want to counter them, I just want a better MU with those characters instead of trying to use sheik against them.

edit: I found only 1 match of Kadaj's Marth vs ICs

 

[ScareMl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2nVjBAatqk (game 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

 

[Wizzrobe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2nVjBAatqk (game 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUxBNQhSVOE

Kadaj vs Esam: great read at 2:48

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Tripping- Now so predictable it can be read.

 

[Kel]

Ok guys, I need the run down on Dedede. I placed outside of money for the first time with my Marth this last Saturday. The bracket was full of Robs, D3s, Diddys, and DKs.

I really need to know all of our options/ D3's options in this MU. I find that full hop fair on D3's shield and spacing nair when lading is too unreliable to do consistently. Missing one pixel can add 40+ damage to Marth while one fair might lead to a 20+ percent fair to dblade combo against d3 at low percents. One of my main training partners has started to take D3 seriously and he is gaining steam every day. This MU is becoming more and more annoying to deal with so I need to figure things out and evolve my playstyle with him in order to keep up in this MU.

Who are the best Marths vs D3? What are our best options? What are our best stages? How should we strike assuming 7 stages unity style (we tend to strike to yoshi's island)? What are D3s afraid of? Do we have any absolutely safe options? What should my triggers be besides if D3 ftilts or not? How do we get back on stage vs D3 when on the ledge? What is the best way to edge guard D3? Do we have frame traps or any other sort of move advantage vs d3? Do we have any kind of low percent grab combos besides fthrow to fsmash for 24%? What are my low percent, mid percent, and high percent goals vs D3? How has this match up evolved over the course of 4 years? Is it worth it to just pick a different character vs D3? What are your general thoughts, findings, trends, etc. in this MU? I have heard that super good D3s like Coney are impossible to win against with Marth; is this true in your opinion?


Walls of text are appreciated and anyone with any amount of advice will be heeded. I really need to figure this match up now- before it becomes a problem.

Thanks, Marth boards.

 

[Shaya]

Well D3 is one of our certified disadvantages, it's a very frustrating match up. So yes, it may very well be worth picking a different character. And no, the match up has pretty much not changed at all since the game came out.

 

[clowsui]

NEO is the best Marth vs D3 hands down but he's hard to find nowadays. NEO is like 2-1 vs Coney and 3-1 or something against Atomsk

I'd suggest striking to Castle Siege instead of YI just because you can run away on transformation 2, transformation 3 is even and you win on transformation 1. I've had more success v Tako this way

fthrow x 2 -> usmash is better vs DDD IMO because then he's in the air and you make him eat way more damage for fray on landing. Also if you position yourself correctly he's forced to choose between going to the ledge or taking juggle damage lolz

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Edgeguarding D3 with bair is the best way imo. Bair has the necessary range to get around his fair and bair if you position yourself correctly. You can just keep swinging at him, forcing him to waste jumps and racking up damage, and eventually he will have to use his upb to get back to the stage which means more free damage.

 

[C.J.]

Too tired to give an actual answer atm (IM me later to talk though or remind me to come back to here) but, on grab things at 0 you have:
Fthrowx3-> fsmash
fthrowx3-> Usmash
fthrowx1-3-> dair
Generally, use fthrowx1-3-> dair as that puts DDD into a horrible situation (the ledge/recovering). If the third fthrow takes him to the ledge but not close enough to dair him offstage, use fsmash to send him offstage and force recovery again. If fthrow won't send him very far offstage (say you grabbed him near a ledge and had to go the entire distance of the stage), that's when I'd use usmash.

 

[Coney]

NEO is like 2-1 vs Coney and 3-1 or something against Atomsk

Nah, we've only played once, and I won.

'cause I'm supa hot, boiiiiiiii

btw really hard matchup, Marth can win but he has to seriously outplay the DDD. NEO was outplaying me pretty badly, then I got him with a gordo @ ~60% near the mid of the screen and killed him and it kinda shook his nerves for the rest of the set.

 

[clowsui]

oh really? i thought you guys played @ a few ATHFs or something my b

 

[Coney]

All good, it's funny that we've only played once tho