Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[GodAtHand]

when will we be done with the lil captain?

 

[Fieryblast]

I agree with Sinking, Olimar is a character Zelda should be very defensive around. Spacing is extremely important, as most Olimars try camping with the Pikmin throw for a while. You may be able to punish them if they become predictable with that (and you can evade the toss and get in close), as there is a little lag time between the throws. Better Olimar players actually do that to lure you in though; to be honest, this is a brickwall that can be difficult for Zelda to overcome. If you know their spacing is off, you can try getting Din's Fire in to get him to back off, but Olimar has a projectile that is far more spammable than Din's Fire... so you'll probably be the one to approach in this fight.

Also of note is that due to his small size, he can occasionally DI out of the "sparkly" smashes if you don't hit him very cleanly. While on the ground, he won't get trapped in the Usmash as well. His smashes are pretty fast and have a pretty impressive range. At the same time, you have dtilt that can be a potential lock... or set you up for a utilt or usmash (at higher percents), and Dsmash that is comparably fast to his attacks. I recommend close combat, but not of an aggressive kind. See what he does, try to get some fast hits in. Once he has enough damage, you can try to set up a smash.

 

[DanGR]

Can someone tell me why the matchup is only 40-60? I thought there'd be at least one other Zelda player that has played a good Olimar that knows the matchup well- not just Marsulas.

 

[Kataefi]

I think it's 65:35, but I think it's majority vote based.

 

[DanGR]

Majority based? So even if most of you guys or the people you're playing don't know what the matchup is like at its highest level, that doesn't matter?

 

[Villi]

Only good Oli I've played is Weruop on WiFi and he's not exactly campy or necessarily ground-based. *shrug*

In a real match, Zelda doesn't need to **** up and lose. Nair will get Pikmin off of her before they do too much damage and a careful eye will make her space so that she can't be punished. Din's fire will not miss every time like she won't be completely free from Pikmin throw damage.

Olimar dies under 100 to Zelda's fresh up smash and up tilt. A down smash will lead to an easy edge guard that has nothing to do with Din's fire and will also kill you near the edge under 100. Dtilt will lock you at ~50% and will most likely lead into a dsmash at a percent that'll make you spike bait.

If Olimar is gonna play gay, Zelda can just rack up damage with Din's and safe pokes and punish Oli's approaches if he ever decides to do that. Unless Olimar really is capable of never being hit by Zelda, I don't see how this matchup is any worse than 65-35 when Oli has little room for error due to his weight.

 

[DanGR]

First of all, wifi means nothing. (Ex. Olimar easily outcamps Zelda irl) Zelda doesn't have any decent approaches irl either. Theoretically, Zelda has no approaches at all against Olimar. What she does have is enough options to bother Olimar a bit. And about uptilt killing well- you have to knock him in the air first.

 

[Villi]

First of all, wifi means nothing. (Ex. Olimar easily outcamps Zelda irl) Zelda doesn't have any decent approaches irl either. Theoretically, Zelda has no approaches at all against Olimar. What she does have is enough options to bother Olimar a bit. And about uptilt killing well- you have to knock him in the air first.

It seems you can't provide much more than theory, yourself, then? Like I said, Zelda doesn't need to approach until she creates a safe opening. Until then, there's Din's, baiting, and punishing.

 

[Kataefi]

Well I havn't been on smashboards long enough to understand how a matchup score is truly decided. I have my own personal matchup mentality and for me fighting an olimar is 65:35.

Dtilt > Utilt setup. Works very reliably.

DSmash > ledgehog. Works 70-80% onwards when fresh.

Nayru's is laggy but reflects nonetheless. A good Zelda will use this at good times.

It's an uphill battle most certainly, but not a **** matchup for Olimar at all IMO. If so, you won't be seeing her at all then, her down b makes good use in this matchup.

 

[DanGR]

It seems you can't provide much more than theory, yourself, then? Like I said, Zelda doesn't need to approach until she creates a safe opening. Until then, there's Din's, baiting, and punishing.

She has to approach quickly. Pikmin spam is too much for her to handle. If the Zelda player is going to nair the pikmin off, you can bet that a good Olimar will punish it. If I've diminished my killing moves, I'll let you attack them.

And I'm not basing this on theory. I've three stocked every Zelda player I've ever played in every single serious match I've ever played in. That's about 6 different Zelda mains in a total of about 15 matches. I've even made one of them quit their main and switch to Olimar cuz I ***** him so hard. And they weren't bad players that had never played an Olimar either. Well, 2 were pretty bad . My point is that I know the matchup extremely well on both sides, and I'm telling you that it's at least 70-30 Olimar.

I can get into the details if you guys want, but I really don't see a point in wasting my time if y'all won't understand.

Well I havn't been on smashboards long enough to understand how a matchup score is truly decided. I have my own personal matchup mentality and for me fighting an olimar is 65:35.

Dtilt > Utilt setup. Works very reliably.

DSmash > ledgehog. Works 70-80% onwards when fresh.

Nayru's is laggy but reflects nonetheless. A good Zelda will use this at good times.

It's an uphill battle most certainly, but not a **** matchup for Olimar at all IMO. If so, you won't be seeing her at all then, her down b makes good use in this matchup.

If you get close enough to dtilt and the Olimar doesn't shield properly, then yes, it works fine.

Dsmash is a good, quick attack to get Olimar offstage. It's a good killer at high percents.

Nayru's is too laggy to use to reflect pikmin. Good Olimar players will punish Nayru's with a simple grab every time.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I agree on 65:35 (as I've all the time). If Olimar's recovery wasn't so easy to edgehog it would be higher, but as things are now he is just too vulnerable to low % kills and downsmash to be able to thoroughly **** Zelda.

And about stages:
RC may allow Oli to kill early, but it also gives that advantage to Zelda. Since it also hinders his recovery and camping, thus maybe giving Zelda some chances to approach, I think it's still better to her than what it is to him.

JJ is double-edged sword: if Zelda spaces well she can outcamp with Din and Olimar suffers a lot from the water. On the other hand though, the stage gives Olimar lots of chances to spike and hurts Zelda's aerial approaches, which she often can't afford.

I'd say that if you know how to play on RC, it and Frigate are both good choices. If not, Frigate is safer option. JJ if you know how to avoid getting spiked and are confident that you can get Oli into water.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

60:40 - 65:35

it's obvious this little bugger has the advantage on us but he doesn't **** us. quite simply, both of us beat the other defensively v. offensively. Olimar has the easier time baiting an approach from zelda, but if she gets a lead and olimar's forced to try to regain momentum, he can't approach zelda well at all.

Rainbow Cruise soildly counterpicks olimar. while it gives him the benefits of low damage KOs, it gives us those exact same benefits. it does nothing good for olimar that it doesn't do for zelda and it inherently gimps Olimar's poor recovery by forcing him to platform without grabable edges. It's not a stage you are likely familiar with, but if you can become familiar with the stage, this should be an easy victory for zelda. if not, orpheon is nice too. not near as good, but safer.

We kill olimar easily. he's light and we hit like a tank. he does the same thing really, which is what makes him troublesome.

DanGR has the misconception that zelda is helpless against olimar. She's got a matchup that'll give her trouble. But what DanGR suggests is perfection on the part of olimar and the lack of perfection for zelda.

if she spaces right, she can poke, din's and bait olimar relatively safely until she gets an opening.

Because zelda CAN get momentum and because once she gets it Olimar has to work to get it back, this is not a hard counter matchup. it's our disadvantage, but it's manageable... thusly it falls in the range of "soft counter" which is 6:4 or 65:35

 

[popsofctown]

DanGR has the misconception that zelda is helpless against olimar. She's got a matchup that'll give her trouble. But what DanGR suggests is perfection on the part of olimar and the lack of perfection for zelda.

Perfection from both, actually halfway perfection, is olimar airdodging every single din's, and Zelda pulling off a nair approach 1/3 of the time, and getting grab comboed->juggled for it the other 2/3rds. That's what the matchup looks like. Both characters have up B's that are 100% ledgehoggable. That seems to be new to some of you.

 

[Kataefi]

What about a SHAD approach? That plus her frame 4 DSmash, frame 5 Dtilt (which locks him and connects with Utilt for the kill 90%+), and nayru's on frame 4 onwards... I bet if she mixes it up and uses such an approach as he spams she can possibly get through to him.

Zelda's recovery isn't completely ledgehoggable, whereas olimar's is. She can at the very least go for ground instead of the ledge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's recovery isn't completely ledgehoggable, whereas olimar's is. She can at the very least go for ground instead of the ledge.

wheras Olimar's recovery goes nowhere and does nothing if the ledge is already in use.

 

[Bandit]

60-40 or 65-35 Oli.

I have played Olimar. Nair can wreck pikmin but it is not fool proof. Dtilt can cause problems with his grab but it is the same with nair, it is not fool proof. There is no guaranteed approach that will work, but that doesn't mean nothing will work. Of course, we even the odds a bit just by changing outfits .

Zelda's best bet is to gimp olimar, but Olimar probably will kill her out right more often than gimping. If Zelda recovers correctly, gimping won't happen except in the more extreme cases.

 

[DanGR]

What about a SHAD approach? That plus her frame 4 DSmash, frame 5 Dtilt (which locks him and connects with Utilt for the kill 90%+), and nayru's on frame 4 onwards... I bet if she mixes it up and uses such an approach as he spams she can possibly get through to him.

They're all shieldgrabbed easily and they're all pivotgrabbed easily.

Zelda's recovery isn't completely ledgehoggable, whereas olimar's is. She can at the very least go for ground instead of the ledge.

I've never heard that one before, lol.

 

[Kataefi]

They're all shieldgrabbed easily and they're all pivotgrabbed easily.
I've never heard that one before, lol.

Tell that to your fellow olimar main ^^

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda's recovery isn't completely ledgehoggable, whereas olimar's is. She can at the very least go for ground instead of the ledge.

This helps, but often the lag is long enought for her to get smashed or grabbed. It´s still much better option than to get edgehogged though.

wheras Olimar's recovery goes nowhere and does nothing if the ledge is already in use.

It can stagespike if Zelda´s invincibility is over and she at high percents... but that is practically impossible if the player isn´t sleeping.

Zelda's best bet is to gimp olimar, but Olimar probably will kill her out right more often than gimping. If Zelda recovers correctly, gimping won't happen except in the more extreme cases.

This is true. That´s one of the main differences with the two in this match. Both have killing power, but Zelda has trouble using hers and has to rely on gimping while Olimar has it completely other way around.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

They're all shieldgrabbed easily and they're all pivotgrabbed easily.

you could argue that most of what olimar can do is easily spotdodge->Dsmashed just because it's able to be countered doesn't mean it will be. We've already accepted that olimar is dificult to approach, but it's not like we need to find too many openings with how easy you are to kill. And, in addition, you aren't impossible to approach. just frustrating to.

I've never heard that one before, lol.

pops was acting as if he hadn't. That wasn't in response to you, but as long as we're on the subject: Zelda's recovery > Olimar's

 

[DanGR]

you could argue that most of what olimar can do is easily spotdodge->Dsmashed just because it's able to be countered doesn't mean it will be. We've already accepted that olimar is dificult to approach, but it's not like we need to find too many openings with how easy you are to kill. And, in addition, you aren't impossible to approach. just frustrating to.

Name 1 approach that can't be shieldgrabbed or retaliated against OoS.

This isn't even including his pivotgrab, something Zelda can't punish. (I'll get into that later in this discussion)

pops was acting as if he hadn't. That wasn't in response to you, but as long as we're on the subject: Zelda's recovery > Olimar's

I was being sarcastic. I've heard it a hundred times. Most of the time, it's an uneducated argument unless the opponent is named MK, Yoshi, Peach, Sheik, or a few other characters.

Olimar's recovery against Zelda
Olimar's recovery is as bad as the Olimar player's predictability is (for the most part)- and in this matchup, that's absolutely true.

Recovering onto the stage without using upb.
Unless Zelda uses an attack that sends him straight horizontally (dsmash- none of her other attacks will do this), Olimar can DI upwards and use his second jump (aided by his whistle) to get back most every time. Reason being, Zelda isn't fast enough aerial wise and doesn't have any attacks that have enough speed or are multhit that should give Olimar any trouble heading back to the stage via whistle armor. This is also important.

Recovering to the stage using upb.
Let's say Olimar was sent horizontally. If he's at a high percent, he should die if you edgehog->roll onto the stage when he gets close. That's simple.

If he was at a high enough percent for DI, his good second jump, and the boost from an upb not to get him within edge distance, he has purple pikmin to deter edgehogging, upair, and varied latch times help him from getting edgehogged. While this isn't enough to get him back every time, it does provide Olimar with enough options to give the Zelda player trouble.

As for Zelda's recovery...

Recovering onto the stage without using upb.
Like Olimar, Zelda is floaty as well. Unless you're hit by dsmash or you lost your double jump, you'll have enough of a second jump to get far enough. For many characters, the thing that makes it difficult for Zelda to recover onto the stage against Olimar is that Olimar has too much range on her.

Have you ever fought a DK with a character that has short range? When you land onstage while recovering, you have to fear that the DK player will use a long-ranged attack. His dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash have enough range that if you land near DK you don't have enough range to use an attack to safely guard your landing, you can't airdodge to the ground or you'll get caught during the vulnerability frames, and you already used your double jump to get back to the stage, and so that option is out the window.

The same goes for Olimar against Zelda. His fsmash and grab have more than enough range to make it difficult to land onstage after recovering. So you, the Zelda player, needs to try and land on the ledge. When you're in this position, spamming fsmashes off the stage is a VERY good edgeguard. I'd like to know how you get onto the stage when this happens.

Recovering to the stage using upb.
When you're getting back to the stage via upb, you have only two options:
1.)recover onstage
2.)recover using the ledge
That's it.

What would you do if the Olimar player is standing just on the edge of the stage? Are you going to upb to the ledge and risk a quick edgehog? Or are you going to teleport to the stage and risk getting thrown or hit back off, or killed with an upsmash (if you're above 80-95%)?

Let's say you teleport to the stage. If I'm onstage and you were at a low percent, I'll rack whatever percent I can and hit you back off. If I was on the ledge, I'll jump off and upair you into the air, where you'll get comboed if at low percents. If not, you'll be above me- a very bad position for Zelda anyways.

Let's say you teleport to the ledge. If I decide to get on the ledge, you're dead. If I don't edgehog, you're on the ledge- a bad position for Zelda anyways. this is where I spam fsmashes as I mentioned earlier.

Now, I typed this up pretty quickly, so if you see a blatant error, tell me and I'll edit this post.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Name 1 approach that can't be shieldgrabbed or retaliated against OoS.

Dashgrab.

Well, not really, but the same can be said about most of the cast. Most of them have approach options limited into grab/something that can be shielded and punished. Of course Zelda grab is bad, there´s no denying it.

Other than that she has auto-canceled Nairs->something or wawebounced Dins->something. Nothing too great, but not complete garbage either.

Recovering onto the stage without using upb.
Like Olimar, Zelda is floaty as well. Unless you're hit by dsmash or you lost your double jump, you'll have enough of a second jump to get far enough. For many characters, the thing that makes it difficult for Zelda to recover onto the stage against Olimar is that Olimar has too much range on her.

Zelda has FW to get her far away from Olimar. It does give Oli a perfect spacing for spamming, but saves Zelda from instant attacks. She also has Nayru´s invincibility frames, but they are hard to use at a right time.

His fsmash and grab have more than enough range to make it difficult to land onstage after recovering. So you, the Zelda player, needs to try and land on the ledge. When you're in this position, spamming fsmashes off the stage is a VERY good edgeguard. I'd like to know how you get onto the stage when this happens.

Usually the best way is to time ledgejump between two F-smashes. This puts Zelda into air, but gets her off the ledge. Other way is to wait till Olimar runs out of Pikmins (if he actually throws them off the stage).

But it also works other way around: what options does Olimar have when he´s hanging from the edge and Zelda spaces into F-smash range? Pikmin toss is stopped by U-tilt, ledgeattacks gives Zelda free F-smash and roll leads into death through her D-smash, leaving ledgejump his only option.

 

[asob4]

But it also works other way around: what options does Olimar have when he´s hanging from the edge and Zelda spaces into F-smash range? Pikmin toss is stopped by U-tilt, ledgeattacks gives Zelda free F-smash and roll leads into death through her D-smash, leaving ledgejump his only option.

ledgehopped fairs or uairs through the stage.
or an air dodge/WAC to instant attack.
hop over you, DI away from your anti air attack/WAC your attack/air dodge your attack.

your aerials are laggy and only hit once, ours are mutli hit and very fast. (uair/nair/utilt)
our smashes are very fast, yours last a while but only one at a time. we can shoot off 2 or more in that time (usmash/fsmash)
we can get around yours a lot easier than you can against ours.

it seems you guys don't take WAC into account as much as you should

 

[GodAtHand]

I think 65-35 takes into account just about everything Olimar can use against Zelda... What would you people suggest for a percentage? I am really curious to see what the Olimar mains think the match-up should be percent wise.

^_^

 

[Kataefi]

They think it's 75:25 ^^

Little do they know that RARing autcancelled Nairs > Dtilt > whatever is in her arsenal is a very unexpected and decent approach.

Ledgewarping > bair a camped olimar is effective and kills him at around 80%. GREAT APPROACH alert >.>

Nayru's is handy =D I've seen many an olimar get put into a frenzy when their pikmin turn against them.

Din's isn't too bad. It stalls his recovery. Nair also hurts him off stage and sends him further outwards. If you ledgehog and he hops over, drop and immediately Uair. Kills him at around 70% when fresh.

Zelda CAN hurt him. We as Zeldas havn't really thought of a concrete playing style with her in comparison to a character like Peach because her metagame is evolving veeeeeery slowly. I think if you can ledgewarp freely on any stage as good as NinjaLink and have a beastly offstage game like DarkMusician, then she'll give him more of a challenge.

I personally say 65:35. No way near 75:25. If you guys think that's the score with her, I feel sorry for D3, Bowser and practically the majority of the cast with a ground attack that isn't faster than oli's grab (you guys must have a lot of 90:10 matchups)...

 

[DanGR]

Dashgrab.

Well, not really, but the same can be said about most of the cast. Most of them have approach options limited into grab/something that can be shielded and punished. Of course Zelda grab is bad, there´s no denying it.

Grabbing Olimar as an approach isn't realistic.

Other than that she has auto-canceled Nairs->something or wawebounced Dins->something. Nothing too great, but not complete garbage either.

Nairs are shieldgrabbed and Din's fire isn't even considered an approach, ever.

Zelda has FW to get her far away from Olimar. It does give Oli a perfect spacing for spamming, but saves Zelda from instant attacks. She also has Nayru´s invincibility frames, but they are hard to use at a right time.

I was assuming you're offstage, but within distance to reach the edge. If you're not offstage, then it's not considered recovery.

Usually the best way is to time ledgejump between two F-smashes. This puts Zelda into air, but gets her off the ledge. Other way is to wait till Olimar runs out of Pikmins (if he actually throws them off the stage).

You can't space a jump between two fsmashes. As the pikmin from the first fsmash falls past you, the second one is on it's way. Ledgejumping doesn't work because your hurtbox is still vulnerable during the jump. (And if you didn't know, the pikmin falling off the side of the stage is a hitbox.)

But it also works other way around: what options does Olimar have when he´s hanging from the edge and Zelda spaces into F-smash range? Pikmin toss is stopped by U-tilt, ledgeattacks gives Zelda free F-smash and roll leads into death through her D-smash, leaving ledgejump his only option.

Rising upairs work every time.

edit:

They think it's 75:25 ^^

around that percent, yes.

Little do they know that RARing autcancelled Nairs > Dtilt > whatever is in her arsenal is a very unexpected and decent approach.

Ledgewarping > bair a camped olimar is effective and kills him at around 80%. GREAT APPROACH alert >.>

Nayru's is handy =D I've seen many an olimar get put into a frenzy when their pikmin turn against them.

I really can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Please stop for the sake of sanity.

Din's isn't too bad. It stalls his recovery. Nair also hurts him off stage and sends him further outwards. If you ledgehog and he hops over, drop and immediately Uair. Kills him at around 70% when fresh.

You're naming off random situations and move uses that aren't significant to the matchup. I can do that as well if you like.

Zelda CAN hurt him. We as Zeldas havn't really thought of a concrete playing style with her in comparison to a character like Peach because her metagame is evolving veeeeeery slowly. I think if you can ledgewarp freely on any stage as good as NinjaLink and have a beastly offstage game like DarkMusician, then she'll give him more of a challenge.

Well, I'd **** them both. How's that for an argument?

I personally say 65:35. No way near 75:25. If you guys think that's the score with her, I feel sorry for D3, Bowser and practically the majority of the cast with a ground attack that isn't faster than oli's grab (you guys must have a lot of 90:10 matchups)...

Except they're different.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Nairs are shieldgrabbed and Din's fire isn't even considered an approach, ever.

Not Din´s fire, but wawebounced Din´s fire. If Pikmin toss counts as an approach, so does wawebounced Din.

I was assuming you're offstage, but within distance to reach the edge. If you're not offstage, then it's not considered recovery.

FW has enough range to teleport well past the side of the stage most of the time. Only very rarely Zelda has to hurry when using it.

You can't space a jump between two fsmashes. As the pikmin from the first fsmash falls past you, the second one is on it's way. Ledgejumping doesn't work because your hurtbox is still vulnerable during the jump. (And if you didn't know, the pikmin falling off the side of the stage is a hitbox.)

With airdodge it´s possible (I´ve done it). Also, that´s why I added waiting untill he runs out of Pikmin.

Rising upairs work every time.

Zelda´s F-smash outranges Oli´s Uair. I was talking about an situation where she was in position to just about reach with her smash.

 

[DanGR]

Not Din´s fire, but wawebounced Din´s fire. If Pikmin toss counts as an approach, so does wawebounced Din.

Can you give me a link to a thread? I don't understand what you're talking about.

With airdodge it´s possible (I´ve done it). Also, that´s why I added waiting untill he runs out of Pikmin.

I'll trust that you've done it. My point though, is that it's difficult to get past. And you can't wait for Olimar to run out of pikmin. That's silly. Firstly, you'll get hit if you wait. Second, we can pluck directly into any attack we want. (only taking 0.2 seconds more time for the hitbox to come out)

Zelda´s F-smash outranges Oli´s Uair. I was talking about an situation where she was in position to just about reach with her smash.

Are you telling me that Zelda's fsmash has enough range to reach through the thick part of smashville? lol

 

[g2g4l]

I seem to be a little late but from what i've seen there is no way that 65:35 is right. maybe (zelda to olimar) 45:55 and that is a huge maybe.
I mean Oli's smashes out ranges hers. He out beats her in the air. His projectile and camping games is stronger. His close combat is so much better than hers. His grabs are amazing. and recovery is just as unreliable asZzelda's.

So in a more realistic match-up I would say 35:65 easily

 

[g2g4l]

Sorry i'm late dan lol

 

[DanGR]

Whoever said 65-35 meant 35-65. (Olimar's advantage in other words)

 

[g2g4l]

Okay then and zeldas i might sound harsh but i love to play all the characters and she happens to be one of my favorites and i have entered tourneys with her and this just comes from experience

 

[Kataefi]

^^ no that's fine!
I said 65:35 and I meant in Olimar's advantage.

 

[g2g4l]

Okay then sounds like there are no more contestants in this situation and it seems pretty safe to say that 65:35 is a good estimate and while i am here what are your thoughts on VS ness we have her at 50:50 dead even do you guys agree

 

[GreyFox86]

50:50 Zelda and Ness just doesn't sound right for some reason. If anything 45:55 Ness > Zelda sounds about right. I'm not sure if this is covered or not, cause this is the first time posting in this thread, but the fact that your Din's limited cause of the reflector from Ness, kinda hurts Zelda's game.

Don't get me wrong, I've been able to play and beat Ness's with Zelda. It's just annoying knowing that I can't use Din as much and as effectively as I would any other character

 

[DanGR]

You're kidding me.

You guys still haven't named 1 decent approach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

since everyone aside from DanGR seems fine with 65:35 and, while he's not an idiot or anything, he's not able to give an inch, I don't see any reason 65:35 Olimar shouldn't stand. Olimar's a ***** to approach and nothing will work 100% of the time, but several of the approaches listed have a decent chance of success. plus it doesn't take many openings to kill olimar and, if we get the stock advantage, he has just as hard a time shifting momentum as we do. And he's rather easily CPd.

50:50 Zelda and Ness just doesn't sound right for some reason. If anything 45:55 Ness > Zelda sounds about right. I'm not sure if this is covered or not, cause this is the first time posting in this thread, but the fact that your Din's limited cause of the reflector from Ness, kinda hurts Zelda's game.

Don't get me wrong, I've been able to play and beat Ness's with Zelda. It's just annoying knowing that I can't use Din as much and as effectively as I would any other character

as for ness and Zelda. Psi magnet does very little to upper level gameplay. Din's isn't a huge part of our game and psi magnet is easily punished. I really don't see ness having much of anything on zelda. I play a few nesses and I win the majority of the time. if anything it's zelda's favour just by the fact that zelda tends to be better than ness all around, but 50:50 seems fine.

 

[GreyFox86]

as for ness and Zelda. Psi magnet does very little to upper level gameplay. Din's isn't a huge part of our game and psi magnet is easily punished. I really don't see ness having much of anything on zelda. I play a few nesses and I win the majority of the time. if anything it's zelda's favour just by the fact that zelda tends to be better than ness all around, but 50:50 seems fine.

Ah OK, well the few Ness's I've played here only use PK Fire > Grab/Fsmash and PK Thunder as an attack. Both the bolt and the body. But I also have to be careful not to overuse Din's against them, cause the way I use them is to bait the players to ADodge so I can either do an Usmash or Dsmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ah OK, well the few Ness's I've played here only use PK Fire > Grab/Fsmash and PK Thunder as an attack. Both the bolt and the body. But I also have to be careful not to overuse Din's against them, cause the way I use them is to bait the players to ADodge so I can either do an Usmash or Dsmash.

well, due to din's nayru's and farore's there is ALWAYS a way we have to counter every one of ness's projectiles. And he's cake to edgeguard. Plus we are hard to grab.

ness has got some irritating aerial priority which makes him tougher than some to bring down, but he's not a huge problem.

 

[GodAtHand]

I've played Ness's and they aren't that bad at all. Especially after reflecting on my matches I have had with Olimar's! omg the pain....