Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[GreyFox86]

I dunno about Olimar. I barely lost to one in the past tourney I was in, and he wasn't that good of a player. I honestly don't know how to approach an Olimar outside of Din's Fire.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

seems like no approach is absolute with Zelda and its just down to mixing and matching what you have to get in there.

 

[DanGR]

It's more like she has no approaches and she has to rely on the Olimar player messing up. w/e though. go on believing it's 65-35.

 

[-Mars-]

It's more like she has no approaches and she has to rely on the Olimar player messing up. w/e though. go on believing it's 65-35.

She never really has any approaches, it's something we're accustomed to dealing with.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's more like she has no approaches and she has to rely on the Olimar player messing up. w/e though. go on believing it's 65-35.

no. it's not that bad.

there's a difference between olimar messing up and olimar not reading her.

 

[DanGR]

What's there to read? Her jumping? If she jumps and can't land on our backside, we shield. If she can, we pivotgrab. If she runs, we grab or fsmash. It's that simple.

 

[Kataefi]

Ahem... ledge warping?

It's a tech yet to be mastered... but it's coming ^^

 

[DanGR]

lol, it can be surprising to people that haven't seen it before, but after the first time it's easy to punish.

 

[Bandit]

DanGR...

I've read over most of your posts and you haven't really talked too much about how Olimar plans to get near Zelda. You have only ever shot down ideas we threw out there and laughed at our numbers. Honestly, you've been more of a nuisance than help. If you are so sure it is 25-75 Olimar, then lay it out for us as to why instead of just laughing and discrediting us.

I still will believe it is 40-60 Olimar (I would accept 35-65 if someone can give a non-biased reasoning as to how Olimar gets inside of Zelda). Olimar HAS to approach to kill Zelda. He can damage rack from far, but he can't kill from far. Zelda's projectile can kill from a distance though I would hope higher level players aren't getting hit consistently by Din's fire.

Nair wrecks pikmin. Multi-hit aerial that can be buffered with DTilt. It does not kill the pikmin, but it sends them flying in all directions and far from Olimar. Yes, you can whistle them back, but Zelda isn't taking any damage if she is staying back and Nairing the pikmin spam. I don't know what Olimar does to get inside. Obviously, he needs to start moving in on Zelda, but I don't know how he does this, and if you can answer that question, then I might be more inclined to believe this match-up is more in Olimar's favor.

Olimar camps really well. Zelda plays defense very well. It is like watching and playing in a 6-3 football game.

 

[Kataefi]

Actually, Zelda can RAR Nairs to confuse Olimar as to where she'll land ;D and then she'll lead into Dtilt or whatever, which we all know combos into Utilt and kills oli at what, 90%?

I'm completely dumbfounded by the logic in all these scores. If Zelda supposedly was 75:25, that would undoubtedly make every character with attacks slower than oli's grab even worse. What are your scores for D3 and other heavies Danguuuur? Because as far as I know you've placed Zelda and only Zelda as the worst character in the game to fight oli.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

agreed. Zelda has the ability to approach olimar. it's not easy, but zelda CAN do it with mixups. unles olimar is psychic, Zelda gets in once in a while. and once olimar has to approach, he's in just as tight a spot really.

 

[Bandit]

Exactly Kataefi! If Dan actually gave us reasoning as to why they consider this Oli's best match-up, then I would be more inclined to start believing him. The best part is he runs the match-up thread for Olimar, but they have not discussed Zelda or Sheik, yet they have numbers next to their names. This means his 25-75 is purely his opinion and not their community's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Exactly Kataefi! If Dan actually gave us reasoning as to why they consider this Oli's best match-up, then I would be more inclined to start believing him. The best part is he runs the match-up thread for Olimar, but they have not discussed Zelda or Sheik, yet they have numbers next to their names. This means his 25-75 is purely his opinion and not their community's.

I've had a bit of experience with DanGR before. Knowledgeable guy, but incredibly opinionated. you are never going to sway him to believe something else, you'll just have to decide to accept his numbers or ignore them. you won't get him to change them

 

[GreyFox86]

Actually, Zelda can RAR Nairs to confuse Olimar as to where she'll land ;D and then she'll lead into Dtilt or whatever, which we all know combos into Utilt and kills oli at what, 90%?

I'm completely dumbfounded by the logic in all these scores. If Zelda supposedly was 75:25, that would undoubtedly make every character with attacks slower than oli's grab even worse. What are your scores for D3 and other heavies Danguuuur? Because as far as I know you've placed Zelda and only Zelda as the worst character in the game to fight oli.

I second this. I'm not gonna say it like this, cause he already said it. But I do agree on the part where Olimar has to approach Zelda. Pikimin spamming does build damage but thats it.

As far as approaching, I would say that Zelda has a little bit more approaches than Olimar, but not too too much.

Also since I'm new to this topic whats RAR Nair?

 

[Kataefi]

It's basically running and jumping immediately with your back to the opponent whilst doing an aerial. If you set your c-stick to specials and run and press back, you'll do this. From there you can do any aerial you want and land on the other side of the character (or wherever really).

Normally Zelda would RAR bairs as a solid approach, as many players get scared of being sweetspotted.

I'm suggesting Nair because it's the best one for the job against oli - plus it autocancels to eliminate lag on your next move. Also... our Uair > his Dair. This is really good. The moment you get oli off the stage hang onto the ledge. If he uses the hop from his up b to reach ground you can drop and Uair him immediately. It'll kill him around 80% when fresh.

I cannot seriously believe they havn't even discussed Zelda and Sheik... Also I noticed DK is 60:40 - 65:35, and I read the discussion for D3 and he's been estimated around 60:40 - 65:35, and Zelda is 75:25 how? D3 literally has nothing against a campy oli, not even a reflector :O

 

[GreyFox86]

Ah, OK I see now. Well I tend to do that with with her Bair's since you can do 2 in the same SH as apposed to doing 1 Fair in the SH. Never really found out why you can't do 2 Fair's from a SH like the Bair's but I'm not the one to debate on such things as that.

 

[Bandit]

@GreyFox - Her Fair is just a bit slower than her Bair. It is just enough to not allow for a double attack.

@Sonic - I'm okay with opinionated, but he has offered nothing to support his opinions. I would respect him a lot more if he actually gave some evidence.

This match-up is tough, but we all know it isn't lopsided.

 

[Brinzy]

There's just so much going wrong in this fight for me, just on paper. I agree with G&W being 70:30 in his favor, but honestly, I don't see why Olimar should be easier than G&W. Olimar's Pikmin pretty much make up the main differences between him and G&W. Better grab, too. I guess his tilts aren't all that fascinating to me, though.

I need to actually play this fight, but god, it looks like 70:30 in his favor...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There's just so much going wrong in this fight for me, just on paper. I agree with G&W being 70:30 in his favor, but honestly, I don't see why Olimar should be easier than G&W. Olimar's Pikmin pretty much make up the main differences between him and G&W. Better grab, too. I guess his tilts aren't all that fascinating to me, though.

I need to actually play this fight, but god, it looks like 70:30 in his favor...

game and watch can recover... and well.

and game and watch doesn't have trouble approaching zelda. and doesn't have bad stages against her.

 

[Bandit]

Bair > Zelda (though the Ftilt can beat it...)

GW has more than just one approach, but his Bair is still great if you don't space the angled UTilt right. GW is nearly ungimpable. His kill power is better than Oli's. He also has insta-kill. There's a lot going for GW.

Oli has pikmin spam and good grabs. He is gimpable and so far no described approach to beat Zelda.

 

[asob4]

pikmin toss -> fair
happy? we can do both in one SH
if it's purple then you will get hit with fair.

or wait... we'll dash grab :o
toss -> smash attack
WAC -> smash
SHAD
running usmash
fair
bair
nair
dtilt :o only zori though

all are approaches

happy now?

 

[Bandit]

I could simply list random moves by my character as well and say they work. Why would these moves get past a defensive Zelda? What do they beat? I'm actually curious because no I am not happy.

By the way, Zelda ***** Olimar in the air so 4 of your approaches already have problems.

Also, Zelda DTilt usually defeats dash approaches.

 

[asob4]

pikmin toss will distract you usually (white and purple work best) opening for any of these
nair breaks through tons of moves (such as whorenado) setting up for u/dsmash
fair is very quick and has good range and has the ability to kill. bair is the same
we can WAC one of your laggy moves (sweetspot f/bair anyone?) and attack after that (i have WAC'd a sweetspot fair and fsmashed the landing lag of the move)
dashing shield grab will outrange your dtilt/block it
usmash has invisible hitbox in front of olimar, yellows is largest, second i believe is purple.

 

[Kataefi]

Nope a pikmin toss means we'll use nayru's and our reflector lasts as long as both your pikming toss > fair in one SH. That won't work.

What makes that approach worse is that it's beaten by her FSmash if he falls into the sparks. Even worse is that both attacks are single hits and can be easily spotdodge to whatever.

Why would Zelda bair you on the ground? And why did you WAC that? You should have shielded then punished instead of take damage. Zelda's not stupid, she'll only use bair and fair when you're in the air and the majority of cases you'll never know when it sweetspots or not.

Running grab is long enough for Zelda to SHFF Nair > Dtilt, which screws you over ^^

 

[Takumaru]

Oh please, with pikmin toss you can only guess what he going to do next. Hell, Olimar can dance outside of her range for the entire match and din's fire is a horrible pressure tool at mid ranges. All he needs is to bait one fsmash or nayru's and he can do whatever he wants. Let's look at what oli has in his favor:

His grab range is absurd, his pivot grab is more absurd

He's a small target
as long as he's on the ground, zelda shouldn't be trying to attack from the air

Pikmin throw is better pressure than dins at mid ranges
Oli can sit just outside of zelda's range and force her to approach with pikmin throw and such. Sure you can nayru's it off but that's just a guessing game. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's going to work more than 50% of the time against a half decent player. Also they might be counting on you to throw out nayru's so they can land a free and easy grab.

What oli has against him:
He's light
Lawl "recovery"
Needs pikmin to really do anything (not that this is really that much of a problem for anyone who's ever played olimar...)

So yeah... 35:65 olimar because his recovery sucks.

 

[Kataefi]

Tak that's what we've been saying. We're agreeing to 35:65 at worst - 60:40 at best.

 

[Takumaru]

Pfff, then why does this need further discussion? >_> Let's do lucas or something now.

 

[asob4]

Nope a pikmin toss means we'll use nayru's and our reflector lasts as long as both your pikming toss > fair in one SH. That won't work.

What makes that approach worse is that it's beaten by her FSmash if he falls into the sparks. Even worse is that both attacks are single hits and can be easily spotdodge to whatever.

Why would Zelda bair you on the ground? And why did you WAC that? You should have shielded then punished instead of take damage. Zelda's not stupid, she'll only use bair and fair when you're in the air and the majority of cases you'll never know when it sweetspots or not.

Running grab is long enough for Zelda to SHFF Nair > Dtilt, which screws you over ^^

i WAC'd cause i was at 90% and in the air lol, no other chioce and i'm quicker with WAC than i am with air dodge O_o

we would fade in and out if we knew you were going to attempt to counter
as we fade back and land because of his good aerial DI we'll do an fsmash punishing your fsmash with less range than ours.

olimar isn't stupid either, it's pretty easy to tell when zelda will do a move
which will inevitably get your grabbed of fsmashed

 

[Bandit]

Can we sum this up an move on? It is obvious Oli's aren't helping anymore.

40-60 or 35-65

RC or Japes or Frigate... whichever floats your boat because he'll ban one and leave the other two for use to choose from.

 

[DanGR]

First off, Zelda has to approach Olimar- every time. You guys need to realize this first before we can get anywhere. Olimar outcamps her and also outranges her. She has no choice but to approach. If you're going to sit back and nair the pikmin off the whole match, then go ahead. I'll save my purples and throw them all at once. Zelda simply can't deal with the pressure of thrown pikmin that latch, the purple pikmin's knockback, and the threat of a grab all at the same time.

Din's fire won't do Zelda any good in the matchup. One pikmin latched onto you while you use Din's and you'll already have at least 10% by the time you get it off. It is very easy to shield Din's, throw a pikmin, and continue throwing them.

Nayru's, like Takumaru mentioned, should get punished every time it's used to reflect pikmin. It just has too much lag to be useful.

Actually, Zelda can RAR Nairs to confuse Olimar as to where she'll land ;D and then she'll lead into Dtilt or whatever, which we all know combos into Utilt and kills oli at what, 90%?

Again, it's shieldgrabbed easily. It doesn't matter how you jump, RARed or not. If Zelda jumps, the Olimar player shields. If you hit the shield we grab. It's simple.

I'm completely dumbfounded by the logic in all these scores. If Zelda supposedly was 75:25, that would undoubtedly make every character with attacks slower than oli's grab even worse. What are your scores for D3 and other heavies Danguuuur? Because as far as I know you've placed Zelda and only Zelda as the worst character in the game to fight oli.

While this isn't important to this matchup, I'l answer this anyways.

If a character doesn't have enough range to space against Olimar's grab, a projectile that can give Olimar trouble, an aerial attack->jab that can't be shieldgrabbed, great horizontal fall distance and/or speed, or particularly good edgeguarding, it's most likely going to be at least 70-30 Olimar. Zelda has none of these qualities. His worst matchup has all but one.

I'd like a discussion, but if you must move on to a different matchup, I understand.

 

[GreyFox86]

Can we sum this up an move on? It is obvious Oli's aren't helping anymore.

40-60 or 35-65

RC or Japes or Frigate... whichever floats your boat because he'll ban one and leave the other two for use to choose from.

I agree with this guy. Lets just move on cause as far as I can tell, everyone seems to agree on the 35-65 in Oli's favor. All the Oli players here defending him need to agree on this as well. We Zelda players and those on Oli's side have all basically said the same thing "Zelda has no approach to Oli" "Oli can't do much of anything against Zelda's D and multi-hits". It's actually beginning to become old having the same argument over the same thing. Nothing against the Oli players or Zelda players, but I just don't see a need to continue this topic any further than where it's at now.

 

[asob4]

"Oli can't do much of anything against Zelda's D and multi-hits".

lolwut?

it's called DI >_>

and you have to get past oli's defense, not the other way around
purple pikmin beats your defense

 

[GodAtHand]

Alright so... don't the Oli's post what they think the match-up should be instead of just arguing. Do you disagree with 65-35 or do you just like to argue?

 

[Kaffei]

Can we do Ganondorf or Snake? :/

 

[GreyFox86]

lolwut?

it's called DI >_>

and you have to get past oli's defense, not the other way around
purple pikmin beats your defense

Either way I'm done (and I'm almost curtain the rest of the Zelda players are as well) talking about Olimar. The sole fact that Olimar has an advantage over Zelda should just be that. I honestly wanna see if there's a Lucas one coming soon cause he is the bain of my headaches. >.<

 

[DanGR]

I just like to debate. I do feel that Olimar has a bigger advantage than 65-35 though.

The major points are that...

-Olimar outcamps Zelda.
-Zelda has to approach.
-She has a lot of trouble approaching.
-As a result, it's very difficult for her to land hits on Olimar.
-Olimar racks faster and kills earlier.

=big advantage Oli. (By Smashboard's numbering system, that's at least 70-30.)

Feel free to move on to another character though. The people that are still interested in the Olimar-Zelda matchup can still discuss it here, right?

 

[Kataefi]

I'd like to talk pikachu next =D I find it to be an adrenaline-fuelled matchup, probably the one I look forward to the most...

 

[asob4]

i also like to argue
plus it seems you have some misconceptions about oli and his offensive game so that bothers me
if you understand that oli has a great offensive pressuring game then you'll see why we think it's more than 65-35

 

[Takumaru]

I think the only reason anyone is saying 35-65 is because he's light and has **** for recovery. I don't have much experience against him but I do know he forces zelda to approach which she can't do well. Honestly I think we just need to move on because this isn't going anywhere. I mean, what's it really matter if it's 35-65 or 30-70?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

its just a smiget amount, either way its still hard.